50 Fascinating Things You Really Wanted Us To Know About How You Have Sex

On our Ultimate Lesbian Sex Survey (open to all women who have sex with women) we asked you, at the very end of the survey, if there was “anything else you want to tell us about how you fuck.” Of the nearly nine thousand humans who finished the survey, 3,361 of you took us up on that offer. Previously, we shared with you some of the sex advice you gave us in that section, but today, we’d like to share with you some of the things you shared with us just to share them, because sharing is caring and you are… amazing. You’re amazing. All of you are really, really truly amazing creatures. So, here are 50 statements you made, ripped mercilessly out of context and presented here for our collective enjoyment:

1. My mother had sex with a woman for the first time last night, and announced this afternoon that she is “transformed.” Lesbian/queer sex is transformative!

2. Just because a girl looks innocent doesn’t mean she’s not kinky as fuck

3. Once I humped a pillow while my girlfriend was on top of me and our landlord interrupted us to call through the door asking about rent and I answered without stopping the humping

4. The cats won’t stay off the damn bed.

5. I fuck with the coordination of a newborn lamb.

6. Buttsex is more fun than I expected!

7. There is something about a woman in a tux, you know? Like she could bring you into the bathroom, run her hand up your dress, fuck you on the sink, and then go back out into the party like nothing happened. But there’s that quick smile on her face when she brings you your champagne.

8. I sometimes talk about comic book characters in the middle of sex

9. I fuck as though I have no fucks to give.

11. I get off to Debbie Does Dallas. The feminist in me is sad. My clitoris is not.

12. After many years banging dudes because I thought that’s what I *should* be doing, it’s amazing to wake up to the woman I love and fuck her because it’s what I *want* to be doing.

13. Listening to Sleater-Kinney turns me on and I have the One Beat CD in my car and sometimes when I’m listening to it while driving on the highway I masturbate.

14. ALWAYS SOCKS ON

15. SEX WITH LADIES IS THE COOLEST

16. listl LIGHTS LOW, MUSIC LOUD. I-I-I-I could fuck you all the ti-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ime I-i-i-i-i-i-i-ime, i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ime.

17. FISTING = ROMANCE

18. I happy cry after fisting! Every time! Hooray for being a big gay!

19. If you even slightly touch my nipples I’m horny and you better be prepared to fuck me

20. I’ve had a threesome, with a husband and wife, every night for the past three months, with the exception of 12 days. And I’m fucking enjoying every damn minute of it!!!

21. Mindfuck, heartfuck, clitfuck, lovefuck, nursefuck, cosmosfuck, fingermouths, tonguefingers, earclit

22. Before sleeping with someone I really liked for the first time, I was terrified. There was this idea that all lesbians were really good in bed and I was afraid to tell someone I was inexperienced when I thought they were expecting me to just put my hand in their jeans and make some sort of orgasmic-Shane-alchemy happen. And then I had sex with someone I really liked for the first time and it felt like for the first time my body was doing exactly what it was meant to do and I didn’t have to think about a single thing and I was like, “Fuck, maybe all gay women really are good at sex, because I certainly am.” There is no other feeling in the world like making someone cry real tears because of how good you feel inside of them. Goddamn. Being gay was the best thing to ever happen to my sex life, I’ll tell ya that.

23. Thank you Autostraddle — every girl I’ve fucked has been a Straddler, many of whom I met at Straddler events!

24. I had an impromptu four-way last night. Just FYI.

25. Oral sex is definitely what tongues were made for. The whole eating-food-thing is just an added benefit.

26. Big 70’s style bush is the best

27. My cat likes to sit on me when I masturbate (I don’t let him) also the first time I went down on my girlfriend my cat jumped on her stomach and I laughed until I cried …. dammit, cat.

28. I’m going to build my own harness out of bike parts!

29. One time I had sex on acid and my genitals looked like my dad’s face.

30. I say a lot of things about myself during sex that I would not say about myself at any other time, primarily phrases like “I’m your bitch.”

31. I could make Christian Grey look like a kitten in the bedroom.

32. Lesbians love boobs. Regardless of how often my fiancee and I fuck, we feel each other up constantly.

33.  It’s my birthday and my girl is taking me to a bondage swingers club! I’m super excited!

34. They say sex is like pizza, but I feel like sex with guys is like frozen pizza. Yeah okay, it’s something, but it’s not really what I want when I want pizza.

35. I fucked a girl with a carrot once

36. Usually there is talking, laughing, loving, breathing, fighting, crying, drinking, writing, winning, losing, cheating, kissing, thinking, and dreaming involved.

37. I think if we are twisted in some kind of weird pretzel formation and are both being penetrated, it it is a great day.

38. My partner is a GOD IN BED and I’m never ever banging another straight person again.

39. It’s better now at age 57 than any other time in my life!

40. If I could get with more women, I would be able to fill out so many more things on this survey.

41. Sometimes when I come really hard, I see rainbows.

42. I fuck like a pornstar Party like a rockstar Play like an all star

43. My first time was in the toilet cubicle of a classy café.

44. Afterwards I feel all fuzzy inside – like a sexed up bear who just wants to snuggle.

45. I can’t say enough about hanging upside down, tangled in fruit by the foot.

46. I’ve had some weird sex and some great sex and I wake up everyday so fucking greatful that I’m queer as fuck.

47. It took me six years to get to a proper orgasm, I’m not waiting six more to get fisted – let it be known!

48. At least my dildo loves me.

49. I think we need a scientific inquiry about cats’ fascination with lesbian sex. I don’t think I’ve had sex in which a cat did not wander in to watch. Or would chill under the bed. Is this a common experience?

50. I’d like to tell everyone else to OWN IT. Own who you are. Own your sex life. Own your right to fuck who you want, how you want (assuming they also want that). Women and the LGBTQ population have been told for too long what they should and shouldn’t do. Fuck that. Let’s own our sexuality.

Riese is the 37-year-old CEO, CFO and Editor-in-Chief of Autostraddle.com as well as an award-winning writer, blogger, fictionist, copywriter, video-maker, low-key Jewish power lesbian and aspiring cyber-performance artist who grew up in Michigan, lost her mind in New York and then headed West. Her work has appeared in nine books including "The Bigger the Better The Tighter The Sweater: 21 Funny Women on Beauty, Body Image & Other Hazards Of Being Female," magazines including Marie Claire and Curve, and all over the web including Nylon, Queerty, Nerve, Bitch, Emily Books and Jezebel. She had a very popular personal blog once upon a time, and then she recapped The L Word, and then she had the idea to make this place, and now here we all are! In 2016, she was nominated for a GLAAD Award for Outstanding Digital Journalism. Follow her on twitter and instagram.

Riese has written 2697 articles for us.

249 Comments

  1. “I’ve had a threesome, with a husband and wife, every night for the past three months, with the exception of 12 days. And I’m fucking enjoying every damn minute of it!!!”

    *highfives* awesome!

  2. Can I just say I love these list articles? They’re like smorgasbords of interesting information that I would never be privy to in real life.

    They’ve also inspired me to make little gay lists of my own, in an effort to understand myself better. I’m starting one now titled “really gay thoughts I had that I didn’t realize were gay when I didn’t know I was gay” or something like that.

    • If you were to write that list up and submit it to AS as an article, I’d love to read it! I had a lot of those kinds of thoughts myself during my teens/early 20’s, such as “I’m fantasizing about that girl all the time because I think she’s aesthetically pleasing from an objective standpoint! It’s not because I’m *attracted* to her!”

  3. Argh our cat loves sitting on the end of the bed/couch and watch. So offputting when we first got her, now we shoo her away and it’s ok, except when she decides ankles are fun to attack.
    Bad kitty!

  4. 50. I’d like to tell everyone else to OWN IT. Own who you are. Own your sex life. Own your right to fuck who you want, how you want (assuming they also want that). Women and the LGBTQ population have been told for too long what they should and shouldn’t do. Fuck that. Let’s own our sexuality.

    Yes, preach, sister!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Yeah, once I was laughing about how Oliver likes to watch myself and the girl I was dating when we were having sex. And I’m pretty sure the other people in the coffeeshop didn’t know Oliver was her cat. Oh well

  5. I…I don’t understand. Why aren’t people closing their doors when having sex? That would prevent a cat from sitting in as an unwanted spectator. Or, like, put the cat in the bathroom. I dunno, I can think of a dozen ways to not have the cat in the room with me while I’m having sex.

    • One of my cats will meow and then escalate to yowling VERY LOUDLY and throw herself against the door/try to hook her paw under it and open it/scratch at the door of any space that she is either left out of or confined to. It’s ultimately more distracting and awful than the possibility that she’ll jump on the bed.

  6. Coitus interruptus awards go to cats by the looks of things. I bet there’s a whole list of the cat things people stated just waiting to be compiled. To whit;
    When I was in high school my cat (RIP) would get mad if locked out of any bedroom and then sneak in and shit on the bed, or in the bed as revenge…which made for a nasty surprise one afternoon for me and my gf at the time. Lesson learned.

  7. Story time:

    The last time my girlfriend and I had sex (like a week and 1/2 ago) she decided she wanted to sit on my face. We hadn’t done it before so we hadn’t worked out a game plan for it yet. I thought “How hard can it be?” The while idea is pretty straight forward so I’m like “Yeah sit on my face!” She stands up and walks toward the head of the bed. It was a sight to see! She grasps the head board and lowers herself above my face. I get 2 licks in and she loses her grip on the headboard because of the lube she forgot to wipe off. She slams crotch first, onto my face, falls backwards off the bed and knocks the lamp and nightstand down with her. I was a little dazed from the falling on my face that it took me a second to get it together and check on her. When I did peer over, she was splayed on the floor, debris from the fall all around her with a pained look on her face. She landed on a shoe. We both laughed through our pain.

    That’s the story of my black eye and the giant bruise on my girlfriend’s back.

  8. Our dogs always want to be in the room when we have sex. When we first started dating my partner’s dog was so horrified that he would like jump in the middle and interrupt because he thought I was attacking her.

    Now they just sit at the bottom of the bed. You think they would know better, because one got kicked about 8 times while I was orgasming the other night.

    They also have developed a habit of going off to hump each other right after we have sex. Like mothers like dogs?

  9. This is possibly one of the best posts I’ve read here. Made me laugh out loud in the office, and my assistant was like: are you allright? what are you laughing at? I couldn’t answer that someone saying that being in some sort of pretzel shape while having sex made me laugh like a crazy person.

    • Oh, something else, I’ve never had a cat but… is there no way to put them out of the room before sexing it up? It just sounds kinda… painful, being interrupted by cat claws.

  10. “Fuck, maybe all gay women really are good at sex, because I certainly am.”

    “Being gay was the best thing to ever happen to my sex life, I’ll tell ya that.”

    #22, maybe we are the same person, I love you.

  11. This was super fun to read, but out of the 3,361 options did you really have to include one that fetishizes Latinas and our bodies when taken out of context?

    • You know what, based on this person’s other answers and also just my own (perhaps naive) assumptions, I’d assumed that the author of that comment was Latina and I also assumed that she was either talking about herself (since the question asked “anything else you want to tell us about how you fuck”) or her girlfriend? But you’re right that we don’t really know out of context who wrote it or whether or not they’re Latina themselves, so I’ll remove it and replace it with a different comment. I apologize!

      (For anybody reading this exchange post-removal, the comment was “latinas know how to work dem hips.”)

  12. OH MY GOD #34! That is exactly how I feel. Like, if the frozen pizza is there, I guess it’s better than not having pizza, but maybe it’s NOT better than not having pizza, and you end up hurting the pizza’s feelings because you want to be with a different kind of pizza, and then the pizza starts acting out and ruins a 10 year friendship, or you break up with the pizza right before his birthday because you just can’t take frozen pizza anymore, or the pizza gets violent because he’s an abusive shithead that the emotionally manipulative artisanal gluten free pizza enables and supports, and–

    It’s been an interesting/terrible few years.

  13. So many animals in the bedroom. Aca-scuse me? My headspace is so delicate, I can’t even deal.

    One time I was in the middle of making out, pushing towards the bedroom and her dog followed. I was like “heyyyy ummm” and she seriously did not understand! When I kicked out her lab, he sniffed heavily under the door crack the entire time! Eek!

      • I was going to say the same thing, but figured it was better if self-idenitfied queer women did so instead. BTW E, accidentally pressed like on the first comment when I was only trying to like your. Sorry J.

      • okkkkk but the title of the survey is “lesbian sex survey” so why did someone think that was the appropriate venue for gushing about piv with dudes, and why did autostraddle agree. if someone wants to brag about feeling powerful by having hetero sex they can go to literally any feminist website.

        • oh wow, well! eek, i can see how it could be read in other ways out of context BUT as you know i’m a passionate misandrist, so to me, somebody saying that they achieved power over a man by swallowing him with her cunt was right in line with my agenda. it felt very foxfirey. i was actually worried i might get criticized for the opposite of what you’re saying, J! :-/

          • first i appreciate your nice response!! so for me there’s two different things happening here.

            1) i see what you are saying, but it’s not in line with misandry, tbh, it’s in line with typical sex-positive hetero feminism. see: things like “i can smash the patriarchy while riding you cowgirl style” and the site sexy feminism, etc. repackaging (cis)hetero piv sex as feminist/empowering/whatever is not new and not radical. i mean if someone finds personal power in that, it’s her prerogative and good for her, but it does nothing to disrupt the power dynamics already in place/further the feminist cause.

            2) my understanding of the survey was it was for lesbian sex. my understanding of autostraddle was that it was for “girl on girl culture.” so seeing m/f piv graphically described was extremely jarring and i don’t think it belongs based on those parameters. and i don’t understand why someone read “lesbian sex survey? to see how women are having sex with other women? hmm, time to talk about riding a guy :)”

          • yeah, i see what you’re saying! i think this might be a super dramatic case of somebody’s reading of a certain thing being heavily informed by where they’re coming from. like what you’re saying makes complete sense and i can see why you felt the way you did from that vantage point. for me, I was recently talking to a queer friend who only dates women and she hates men but has had sex with men and when i asked her why, she said the idea of having total power over a man and being able to humiliate him turns her on. like, him assuming that she needs him but she doesn’t, and knowing that she will leave after she gets what she wants but before he gets what he wants. so when i read that comment, i thought of her and laughed. i didn’t think of the act of sex with cis men being empowering, and i have no desire to promote that ethos here because like you said it’s unnecessary and is done to excess elsewhere. what i read was a woman having a man in a vulnerable position and laughing in his face. this is sort of a theme in like, witchy narratives, and I was watching Salem while putting together this list, SO!

          • I understand what you’re saying, Riese, and I did read all your comments on this issue.

            I don’t think this is a matter of interpretation. The name of the survey was quite clear “Announcing The Ultimate Lesbian Sex Survey (For Women Who Sleep With Women)”, there’s nothing foggy in the title and you have the big letters to help you know the meaning. There’s nothing confusing about it.

            “Riding a man PIV style makes me feel more powerful than being the penetrator in any act” does not sound empowering, not even misandrist by a long shot. It’s just regular hetero sex with maybe the use of some strong words and a great appreciation for your vagina, nothing more.

            Empowering, and misandrist, would be FUCKING A MAN WITH A STRAP-ON.

            Did it once with my best friend, had one of the best orgasm of my life, but he never got near my pussy. That’s a women’s only territory.

            I honestly don’t think that answer belongs here.

        • Is it really necessary for us to constantly make these blanket exclusions? If I had been responding, I would’ve written “nothing makes me feel more powerful than when I’m tickling my boyfriend’s cervix.” That’s not lesbian sex, either — but it sure as heck isn’t straight. Instead of policing these spaces constantly for Proof of Queer, can’t we just welcome the person and the data?

          • based on that what exactly is stopping someone who id’s as bi but has only had hetero sex from responding? in that case what is the point of making any parameters for who can respond? like seriously, i cannot believe “maybe someone should not describe what seems to be cis hetero piv sex in a wsw survey” is considered “policing”

          • AND I REALLY DISLIKE THAT J THINKS THAT YOU’RE ONLY ALLOWED TO IDENTIFY AS BI IF YOU’VE HAD SEX WITH WOMEN. I ALSO DISLIKE THAT THEY THINK THEY SHOULD DECIDE WHAT IS AND ISN’T INAPPROPRIATE FOR SOMEONE TO DESCRIBE HOW THEY HAVE QUEER SEX IN AN ANONYMOUS SURVEY.

            I was reading Autostraddle back when I’d only ever given blowjobs to dudes, and barely ever kissed a woman, but I guess I didn’t count as queer until I was coronated with my first pussy.

          • oh also, in response to this –> “based on that what exactly is stopping someone who id’s as bi but has only had hetero sex from responding?”

            there are lots of people who ID as lesbians who haven’t had sex with a woman yet (but want to!) on this survey, and i think those voices are important. because we talk about acts but also about desire. so no, nothing would stop a bi woman who’s only had hetero sex from responding, but that’s okay. “a bi woman who’s only had hetero sex” would’ve described me once upon a time, so.

          • I just feel like we get really mixed messages from the online LGBT community about nonbinary sexual expression in particular.

            Number 50 tells us to “OWN IT. Own who you are. Own your sex life. Own your right to fuck who you want, how you want (assuming they also want that).”

            But then the when someone (who could be queer, pan, genderqueer, trans, etc., we don’t know) mentions PIV, we are like, “not here, please.”

            And I get that this is not really the forum to celebrate super straight people having super straight sex, but considering who reads the site, the person who said that about PIV is probably not straight. At the very least, her (their) answer means something queer to her (them).

          • ‘If I had been responding, I would’ve written “nothing makes me feel more powerful than when I’m tickling my boyfriend’s cervix.” That’s not lesbian sex, either — but it sure as heck isn’t straight.’

            Isn’t this kind of like if I said “nothing makes me feel more powerful than tickling my girlfriend’s prostate but that sure as heck isn’t gay!!”

            Like, I would never argue that the sex I’m having with my same-sex partner isn’t *gay* (even if I also added that it wasn’t straight) just because she’s trans.

        • 100% agree with J. If someone wanted to share this reply in their survey, fine, but it super did not need to be published. Way to remind me why I don’t read your website, Autostraddle and thanks for continuing to reinforce the message that we lesbians already hear loud and clear: do not expect any safe spaces, even ones marketed toward you.

          • are you serious? i explained why i included it and what i interpreted it to mean upthread! clearly it didn’t read to you the way it read to me, but of all the things to use as an example for why this isn’t a ‘safe space’ for lesbians, using my choice to include a statement i included specifically because i thought it was about a woman overpowering and humiliating a man while imagining that she is killing him with her vagina? come on! i didn’t put anything on this list that i thought would be well-received on a hetero website or that i thought empowered hetero women about having sex with men, that would be ridiculous I would never do that. i put things here that i thought a queer and lesbian audience would appreciate. like i said, i was a lot more worried that i’d get yelled at for misandry.

          • Great, so what’s the plan, guys? (I’m talking to you, one-initial-usernames). We spend all our time arguing about who should be excluded, and then no one feels like this is a safe space?

            Or would you prefer AS was a space for binary-gendered, gold-star lesbians only, that only celebrates and/or MENTIONS, EVER sex between two women who have vaginas? What if one of them wears a strapon, by the way? What if it’s one of those really realistic ones, with the balls and veins? At what point do you tell her to get off your lesbian website to keep it a ‘safe space?’

            Argh, I hate getting het up/confrontational about this stuff, but honestly, I don’t understand how you expect this to be a safe space for anyone if we police each other’s sexualities to this level. As a queer woman who thought I would probably never sleep with another guy until I met my boyfriend (who, by the grace of god, came with a perfect, wonderful vagina, and I shouldn’t have to add that part to prove I’m queer, but it seems like to you guys I do), I don’t belong in the straight spaces. So I go to the queer spaces, like Autostraddle. But then conversations like this — where the mere mention of ‘straight’ sex makes lesbians feel ‘unsafe’ — just exactly where is my safe space supposed to be then?

            Why can’t we exist in the same safe spaces? Why can’t we celebrate each other? Why can’t we live #50 to the fullest, online and in our lives?

            LOL ok I’m done. Sorry, I’ve come up against this stuff a lot and I’m just not sure what to do with it.

          • Why does it make you feel unsafe to be reminded that not every LGBT woman is gay? The fact that you may occasionally come across a sentence or two about a bisexual woman’s experiences with men is a really stupid to avoid a website full of amazing queer content.

          • Really? You do realize that bi/pan/queer women, even in spaces for women in women are many time marginalized and also many times told various bi-phobic comments. This site is a safe space for all who identify as woman into women so that includes trans, non-binary, queer, bi, and pan sexual women.

          • “Way to remind me why I don’t read your website, Autostraddle and thanks for continuing to reinforce the message that we lesbians already hear loud and clear: do not expect any safe spaces, even ones marketed toward you.”

            Hi, as another lesbian, don’t include me in your “we lesbians” bullshit. I don’t feel threatened or grossed out when I am reminded that not everyone here has only had sex with vagina-having people.

          • @queergirl – I like how you have “unsafe” in quotation marks, as if a lesbian who feels uncomfortable with a rather graphic description of heterosexual sex in a survey about lesbian sex is acting ridiculous and like her feelings aren’t valid.

          • From my perspective (queer woman with a queer cis-male partner), having this response in here was great, because it resonated with the way that I have sex and my personal power trip.

            Plus, it’s funny and true and misandrist like Riese said. Seeing made me feel seen, which sometimes I don’t in queer women’s spaces. I’m bummed that it made others feel unsafe, and I can see why the reading S. presents would make her feel unsafe.

            Selfishly, I would like to keep it around, though. I know that I can take my needs to discuss PIV elsewhere to a straight feminist space, but those spaces never feel like they fit, either in perspective (mine’s pretty queer and radical) or in scope of sexual experience (an assumed lack of diverse, queer experiences).

          • I don’t think the mention of sex with a man was a problem, but the fact that woman presented it as de facto more fulfilling and empowering than sex with a woman.

            Like noted above, it matched exactly with how many homophobes imagine queer women (lesbians particularly, but nowadays this label is increasingly co-opted by women who are sexually attracted to men) – as men haters, but who deep down need and crave their d*cks. So there is nothing really empowering in it, and I think that inclusion of that response was damaging.

      • “They think they should describe what is and isn’t appropriate for someone to describe how they have queer sex in an anonymous survey.”

        Yes. All I was trying to say, J, is that there are all kinds of ways to be queer or to have queer sex. I realize that the survey was called, alternately, a “lesbian” and “lesbosexy” survey — I far prefer the latter, as it somehow seems less binary 😉 — but the more inclusive we can be when collecting data about the sex lives of LGBTQ+ people, the better. In the best case scenario, more inclusive surveys will more accurately reflect the very, very complex world of gender and sexual expression as they stand today.

        • One solution to this debate could be making similar surveys for almost every letter in the LGBT acronym (The G can be done in another place).

          We can even add more letters if somebody feels uncomfortable with just those (Riese desperately wants to kill me, I can feel it).

          This work was AMAZING, because it gave us, lesbians, a bigger, more accessible and more comprehensive vision of our sexuality, many of us may not need this but I’m sure that a bunch of baby-dykes and baby-femmes were clapping and crying as crazy.

          And, of course, it killed the LBD myth after more than 32 years of lies and statistical crap.

          Our community, the LGBT community including every freaking letter, needs more real numbers. If you don’t believe me, just Googled “lesbian wage premium” or ” why lesbians make more money”.

          Some theories are kinda crazy, like: “The higher salaries among lesbians in some countries may reflect discrimination in favour of masculine traits rather than against them,” Dr Drydakis. Following this if you’re a femme say hello to the lower wage that is coming your way.

          • But why do we need to divide ourselves by label only? Despite my current identity, I have more in common with pan and bisexual women than I do with gold-star lesbians and straight women. Even if I’m eligible to partake in a Lesbian Sex Survey, why do I have to erase half of my sexual history? Having sex with a cis man helped me recognize my own sexual identity, and that’s pretty fucking important to acknowledge if Riese is trying accurately represent queer experiences.

          • Paper0Flowers – you said below that you wish you would do the same as the woman from the survey to man you were with before. Does that mean you’re sexually attracted to men?

          • ??????????

            boner.jpg said maybe that person had to talk about their hetero sex to “reassert their bisexuality” after taking a survey with “lesbian” in the title. like it’s an insult… gee where have we heard that before. i don’t know how that turned into me thinking they have to id as lesbian. i don’t CARE how they identify, i just think it’s inappropriate to use a survey for sex between women to talk about how you loooove hetero sex with dudes. it’s not like you can’t do that, idk, literally anywhere else on the internet.

          • Sex with dudes (or with penises in general) isn’t always hetero.

            Especially if neither of the people involved in the sex *is* hetero.

          • 1. Reasserting their bisexuality is not about “lesbian” being an insult, it’s about wanting to be accurately identified. Jesus, two weeks ago I was arguing with someone else who was offended because a bi woman wanted to claim the word “dyke”, and now I have to argue with someone who’s offended because a (possibly) bi (possibly) woman (possibly) doesn’t want to be claimed by the word “lesbian”. Let people live, seriously.

            2. We don’t in fact know that this was a case of a cis woman sexing a cis man, so no, it is not necessarily hetero sex.

      • But I also think that it opened up a useful dialogue, so thanks Riese! I’m super encouraged by the number of commentators who are affirming that all kinds of queer people have all kinds of sex. Yay for accurate representation, even when we can’t so easily be put into a box!

      • Well, since plenty of pro-voices are chiming in, I’ll say that I don’t see what’s funny or misandrist about it. I wouldn’t choose it as a hill to die on, but generally I don’t think it’s particularly appropriate for the survey in question, and I fully understand why others questioned and were bothered by its inclusion.

      • Seconding Katharine here because I know I didnt complete the survey because I’m also a queer/bi cis woman in a relationship with a queer cis dude with nothing but a series of many failed one-sided crushes blowing up in my face and awkward OKC dates as badges on my Queer Scout Vest before finding my soulmate happened to be a cis dude, so I felt like my lack of Street Cred meant my responses werent worthwhile.

        And then Riese published this list and, to me, that response isnt a HA HA MISANDRIST JOKE, but a reminder that my experiences as a bi woman are still real and still part of the queer experience, and it really felt nice to see it included as NBD. Because bi erasure is everywhere.

        But no cool let’s sit here and argue why we need to erase possibly bi experiences because it’s Very Important only gold star responses are published.

      • I wish you weren’t sorry, Reise 🙂
        I didn’t take the survey because I was in a relationship with a cis man at the time and felt like a fraud. Like I wouldn’t be accepted/appreciated/wanted here.
        And perhaps (after reading some responses) that is true for some A/S members, but I’m LOVING the responses defending bi-visibility.
        I’m single now, and these comments give me hope that I can find love with a woman, and that I won’t be instantly dismissed because I’ve been in a relationship that involved a penis (I’ve been burned before).
        Even if you did just include it as a joke, THANK YOU.

    • Hey kidz, I know a bunch of conversation has happened about this already… But I just wanna chime in and say that I’ve been out since high school (gayest of the gay, queermo for lyfe) and also I have a super hot & fulfilling occasional sexual relaysh with a straight cis dude. That doesn’t negate my queerness; it’s an intrinsic part of my radical queer politics to rock my own sexuality. And I feel like the AS community was one of the first places where I could talk about all this without being afraid of judgment. Also I’m teaching this straight cis dude about misandry and queer politics, which is a thing.

        • I went back to the original posting for the survey, and it says:

          It’s meant for anyone who feels comfortable answering a survey called “The Ultimate Lesbian Sex Survey (For Lady Types Who Sleep With Lady Types).” If you have had something that could, in the most general sense, be called lesbian sex (“lesbian” in this context is an adjective describing same-sex activity between two women, not a noun describing the sexual orientations of two women having the sex), then we want to hear from you!

          …so, based on AS’s original concept of this survey, it just might belong.

          • how exactly is what you or op #10 described “could, in the most general sense, be called lesbian sex” (where lesbian describes the activity not the orientations involved)

          • The act in question isn’t lesbian sex, but I am a person who has had lesbian sex and therefore my experiences belong in this survey! Inclusion or exclusion into the survey was based on humans and identities rather than specific acts. That’s all I’m sayin’.

          • If I remember right, these came from te little box at the end that asked if there was anything else we wanted to say about how we have sex. Not about how we have lesbian sex, but just how we have sex. So while I, too found it a bit jarring in this list, I can also see why it’s there!

      • Hana – “I’ve been out since high school (gayest of the gay, queermo for lyfe) and also I have a super hot & fulfilling occasional sexual relaysh with a straight cis dude.”

        Now this is what I pointed out at above. Lesbian identified woman (as profile shows), what’s more, who says that she’s the “gayest of the gay”, telling how incredibly hot and super fulfilling sex with men is, defending inclusion of a response which portrays queer women as men haters who nevertheless desire d**k and just try to gain control over it.

        Tell me, if you consider yourself to be so gay it’s impossible to be more, does that mean that you think women who say that they are sexually attracted only to women lie?

        Imagine how it looks like to people from the outside. While the woman from the article may not identify as lesbian, response like this, coupled with many up-votes from other Autostraddle members it received, really does a lot to encourage homophobic stereotypes about lesbians.

        • I understand homophobia is something that is still incredibly prevalent, but I think censoring bits of queer sexuality to attempt to amend it, is not going about it the right way AT ALL.
          I previously identified as lesbian. After 3 years of that, I had sex with a cis man. My ex girlfriend was so angry that I was ruining the good name of lesbians everywhere. She said some very hurtful things. Now I’m scared to identify as anything specific.
          I think this kind of thinking makes it even harder for people to publicly come out as queer, and that is another really important thing that this community is here to help with.
          I hope some of the responses here help you to see sexuality as more than an “us vs them” thing. A person identifying as female and having sex with a person with a penis does not hurt your experience. In the same way that gay marriage is not going to ruin marriage for people that identify as straight.

          • “A person identifying as female and having sex with a person with a penis does not hurt your experience.”

            Did I ever say anything suggesting I feel so? I don’t blame you for encouraging homophobic ideas about lesbians if you didn’t know you were sexually attracted to men back when you chose lesbian label.

            But I do blame women who do that despite knowing they are into men, and like woman from comments above, even keep having sex with men, “educating” them about queer women. No doubt telling them that lesbian sexuality is fluid.

            I have hard feelings about it mainly because I’m “corrective” rape survivor. It may be so that I pay too much attention to “what people would think”, partially because I have a feeling that every time a man like the one who did that to me sees an example of such lesbian identified woman, he has a good laugh, but I also think that visibility matters and affects what people think. It’s not only about those monsters (though if simple message “don’t rape” apparently does have an effect on men, simple message “lesbians don’t want d*ck”, which is intentionally weakened for selfish reasons by such lesbian identified women, should have an impact too), it’s also about mental health and well-being of lesbian women themselves, which is connected to how people perceive and treat them.

          • @amyss Thank you for sharing your experience. It’s a difficult area, and you’ve given me more to think about on this topic.
            I’m sorry for misinterpreting what you said 🙂

          • Thank you for understanding. If you’re interested I shared more of my thoughts revolving around that topic in response to comment of #10, below.

            By the way, sorry if it’s a bit intrusive, but can I ask you what made you identify as lesbian before? I must confess that I have Sexual Orientation OCD (which was also the reason why I studied almost every scientific research regarding sexuality), and it kinda triggered it.

          • I don’t find it intrusive, but I am apprehensive to say anything concrete, as I don’t have a clear grasp on my sexuality.
            At the time, for a few years, I felt no sexual attraction to men, and had an aversion to male genitalia. I had zero desire to be romantically involved with a man, and a LOT of desire to be romantically/sexually with women.
            I do not know how this changed, and it changing for me DOES NOT make me think sexuality is like that for the majority of people.
            I now have the same level of attraction to females as I had before, but I am not opposed to romantic/sexual involvement with males, though particular instances are rare.

          • Kate, does that mean you are attracted to women “in general”, while when it comes to men it’s more “person-based”? Do you see any difference between your sexual and romantic/emotional feelings for women and men?

        • Why are you so concerned with homophobic stereotypes about lesbians? Fuck those people! Actual queer people are here telling you their experiences, trying to be validated in a queer space, and you’re telling them to STFU because homophobes might take their experiences out of context and use it against the community as a whole. That’s pretty shitty. We should support each other and tell the cis/straight/close-minded/homophobes that THEY DO NOT GET TO DEFINE US AND OUR EXPERIENCES REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY UNDERSTAND US AND OUR EXPERIENCES. And neither do you get to do that out of fear.

          • Just to make things clear, you are talking now about LESBIAN identified women who are sexually attracted to men, who keep having sex with men telling us how incredibly hot and fulfilling it is, convincing those men that they are the gayest of the gay women they could meet. Those are all the words that triggered my response.

            It’s not about EXPERIENCES, but co-opting and redefining lesbian label so women who are attracted only to women would become invisible. I wrote more about this subject in my response to user “#10”, at the bottom of the site.

    • What on earth.

      As a gold-star lesbian who is with a bisexual woman, I have no idea why piv sex talk was a problem here (and to be honest, equating “piv” with “straight” is transphobic af). Talking about cock is something I do all the time, and enjoying my gf’s sexuality and also making sure she has freedom to talk about whoever she is attracted to (and maybe pursue it if she wants & I consent), I have no idea what this extremely puritanical approach to queer sexuality is springing from.

      I thought it was hilarious and cute; queer sex is more than sex with women, despite the (I assumed quite non-exhaustive) outline of the survey; and this anger made me think I was reading some completely different, much more naive site.

      Did someone seriously comment that fucking a cis man in the ass was more powerful than riding a cock? Why – because penetrating someone is inherently powerful?! And being penetrated is inherently submissive?! I couldn’t believe my eyes. I get it maybe being more subversive to heteronormative expectations, but more POWERFUL?! Ick.

      • also your bringing up of transphobia here is extremely disingenuous. i may have used “piv” as shorthand sometimes but the op was clearly not talking about a trans woman and my comments were clearly assuming that she was talking about a cis dude, and that’s the problem i have, not the mere presence of a penis.

    • J is completely on the right. People are grasping at straws here, it’s unsightly!
      A comment about having PIV sex with a MAN (not a transwoman, man) should NOT belong on a website dedicated to girl-on-girl love. Not any kind of sex with men. MEN DO NOT BELONG ON THIS WEBSITE. PERIOD.
      How can anyone argue against this??
      Would you go to a vegan website to talk about how much you like to eat fish and how it’s delicious?? lmao.

      If you like to have sex with men, wow, good for you, awesome. Could you maybe learn to talk about it on appropriate places?? Like, outside of a survey on girl-on-girl love?? Like outside of a website dedicated to it, maybe?
      You guys are SO egocentric, it’s embarrassing.

      • I think that the diversity of articles on this site speak pretty clearly — while readers here love what you call ‘girl on girl love,’ it’s just not that simple. There’s an author who writes for this and other sites whose partner identifies as a butch lesbian and uses the pronoun ‘he.’That is just one example of an entire spectrum of ways in which many of our lives are not as simple as can be boiled down to ‘girl on girl.’ Sure, that’s a starting reference point, but any queer site that truly tries to cater to/represent the community isn’t going to limit itself strictly to gold-star lesbian content. And I am so tired of the infighting! We’re like those cats in Millions of Cats. We’re all scrabbling so hard for this safe space there’s going to be nothing left.

        We’re here. We’re queer. That looks different for every. single. person. Get used to it!

        • There is a pretty big difference between honoring a variety of queer women and having a graphic description of how amazing and empowering heterosexual sex is in a survey about women loving women. I mean, come on.

          • next thing you know we’re gonna be puritanical, identity policing gold star jerks for saying “hey, i respect that ur bi and all but maybe don’t hump your boyfriend at a lesbian club” or something

            there’s a time and place and this is not it just as that wouldn’t be, ugh

        • Ugh, accidentally +1 this comment. Did not mean to. Graphic descriptions of heterosexual sex can be found everywhere else on the internet, by the description of the survey itself they don’t belong here.

          • Ok but has anyone considered this might be a troll? I mean it’s getting kind of obvious. Like no one would have even known you +1 anything… I really think this is just a dick pretending to be this way.

          • But it is difficult to find a place where you can feel free to express ALL of your sexuality. The bits that loves pussy, the feminist bits, the bits that you feel guilty about because they aren’t as feminist as you would like, the bits that feel masculine and the bits that feel feminine, and yes, the bits that have sex with men.
            You’re simplifying it by basically saying “get out, we don’t want you here”. Do you know how often queer people hear that?

      • “Would you go to a vegan website to talk about how much you like to eat fish and how it’s delicious?? lmao.” This is such an outrageous analogy, like, how the hell does this even relate to queer sexuality. Are you seriously suggesting that queer women are so limited in their sexual partners that it’s apt to compare them with individuals who purposely limit the kinds of foods they ingest? That is so fucked up.

        This isn’t a site for GOLD-STAR LESBIANS, it’s a site for queer women. That includes women who have sex with cis men. That includes lesbians who once-upon-a-time had sex with cis men. This survey was specifically designed to ask: “Hey, are you a queer woman? LET’S TALK ABOUT HOW YOU HAVE SEX!” not “We only want to know your sexual experiences with cis women”. Yes, the problem with having Lesbian Sex Survey was already addressed by Riese. This site and its authors have repeatedly stressed that most of their inclusion of the term “lesbian” is for optimizing their results for Google searches. But if you actually took the fucking survey, you would have seen how the language within corrects itself to include any woman who identifies as queer and/or has sex with women. NOT EXCLUSIVELY LESBIANS. NOT EXCLUSIVELY SEX ONLY WITH WOMEN. Is it so fucking hard to understand how this site operates in acknowledging the diversity of sexual experiences women who are not straight have?

        • Thank you. And this just gets better and better — now J won’t let me “hump” my boyfriend at a lesbian bar? Have done, will do (at least, sexy slow danced). No one seemed to mind, but also, I’m not asking for permission.

          • Why is it you can’t grasp the concept that not all behaviors are appropriate in all places? Why is it you need to center yourself in spaces that are explicitly and specifically for lesbians? Are you that insecure?

        • You can talk about and empower bisexual women without turning a survey about sex between queer women into a place to talk about how great heterosexual sex is.

          I think this is a difficult subject and I understand there are strong feelings on both sides. Many lesbians and other queer women come here to escape the constant barrage of the homophobic world about how much better and more real heterosexual sex is. And yes, it’s jarring and uncomfortable to those of us who see this as a safe space to see something about how empowering sex with men is in a survey about sex between women. We already hear that every single day of our entire lives from the homophobic world. I get why Riese included it, but I don’t get how so many people are minimizing and dismissing those of us who are uncomfortable seeing that. Is it really disrespectful to bisexual women to not include comments about empowering sex with men in a survey about sex between women? If it is, well okay, but that is no more valid than the feelings of women who feel uncomfortable seeing it. We need to respect both sides.

        • I’m actually a Bisexual, so I know VERY well this site isn’t exclusive for lesbians. And I know very well the “diversity of experiences” I have. But I try not to be such an egocentric person who’d talk about my expériences with cis men on a “queer” site, bc there’s absolutely NOTHING queer in sex between a cis man and a cis woman. That’s actually the opposite of “queer”.

          I don’t think you have a good grasp about what being “inclusive” means. It means that I have to respect my lesbian sisters and stop talking about man in a space that presents itself as safe for them. Bc when I do that, I’m EXCLUDING lesbians. I’m being the OPPOSITE as inclusive.
          I mean, do I really have to be so egocentric that I have to transform every space I’m in into something that talks about ALL OF MY experiences? Do I really need to talk about my experiences with man everywhere? Do I really need the world to validate all my personal choices and my lifestyle? Do I really have to transform evertything I like into Counterculture somehow bc mainstream stuff is lame???
          Please start having more empathy towards other people and thinking more critically.

          • It was a comment on an ANONYMOUS SURVEY. Literally nobody is trying to turn this into a space where bi women get to talk publicly about man-sex all the time.

            Yes, people should absolutely expect that their personal choices and “lifestyle” (really???) be validated on a website that is meant to be inclusive of them. Because it IS totally valid that bi women choose to have sex with men as well as women. That doesn’t mean they need to talk about it all the time – and again, literally nobody is saying that they should – but it DOES mean they should not be subjected to 100-comment diatribes every time a mere reminder of their existence (i.e. a single comment, possibly misinterpreted and taken out of context) appears.

            I have no idea what your “counterculture” comment even means in the context of this discussion.

          • And as for empathy, same as I stated about respect below, don’t come in here asking for it if you’re not prepared to offer it yourself.

          • There’s NOTHING queer about it? That’s odd, because when I’m in full drag (false soul patch and all) and my cis-man partner is on his knees sucking my strap-on, I feel very queer indeed.

    • Holy shitballs. You need to chill out. Stop, and take a breath.

      This is a site for women (cis, trans etc) who are attracted to women. It doesn’t matter whether they’re attracted to people in general, men and women or women only. Bi erasure is real. Let’s not have the AS community contribute to that please.

      As Riese has explained more than once, the comment was put in because MISANDRY. The comment is pretty funny, in my opinion at least. As a cis lesbian, I was not offended or jarred or whatever by the comment. The only thing it did was make me smile cheekily, bc “you do you” #10.

      Sex is personal act. Sex means different things to different people. Just because you seem to not be interested in piv sex, that doesn’t then negate that experience for other queer identifying women. Clearly the person who answered that question identifies as queer in some way, and therefore their sexual activities are relevant, whether they are with a woman or not.

      If AS is truly a safe space for queer women – and I think it is, recognising my privilege as a cis lesbian (in this particular space) – then all kinds of sex should be able to be talked about. I think AS generally does a pretty good job of this, and it’s something I really like and respect about the site/community.

      Remember this. You don’t have to like people’s opinions/activities/thoughts/desires etc, but you do have to RESPECT them.

      • great, i’ll start bracing myself for the cosmo style hetero sex articles some of y’all clearly want since this is not longer a site for “girl on girl”

        • I’m not going to try and reason with you. It’s clearly a waste of time. Think what you want mate. And I’ll think what I think. And others will think that they think. End of story.

          • Except you’re the one telling her what she’s not allowed to think. She commented on the article and what was included in it. You’re commenting on her.

        • Yes. Yes that is exactly what will happen. You’ve uncovered the bisexual agenda.

          Seriously, though, as a queer person you surely must understand other queer persons bristling when told (just like you, for the thousandth time in their life) “that’s fine and all, but some of the sex you have is gross. Don’t bring it up. Keep it behind your bedroom door. Expect other people to be validly offended.” And hearing that sucks.

          • Precisely where has anyone said “some of the sex you have it gross”? They’ve said “some of the sex you have isn’t appropriate for a survey for lesbians about lesbian sex.” It takes an incredible myopic stance to be offended at the very possibility that you may have to modulate what you discuss and share depending on your audience and the application at hand, particularly when it comes to safe spaces.

        • No one is asking for articles devoted to heterosexual sex. I’ve never heard a single queer/bi/pan person ask for that, and I’ve been reading Autostraddle for years. Non-monosexual people are simply asking for the ability to mention their experiences with men without causing a controversy or having their queerness questioned. Yes, there are other sites where one can go to talk specifically about relationships with men. There are, however, very, very, few where a non-monosexual person can be open about the full range of her experiances and desires without being judged.

          There is never going to be an Autostraddle article devoted to sex between cis men and cis women. There will, from time to time, be mentions of it in comments or answers to survey questions. If the very occasional mention of female/male sex is that disturbing to you, then feel free to stop reading. You’ll be missing out on a lot of interesting articles, but you do you.

          • And how does it damage you to mention your sexual experiences with men outside surveys that explicitly state they’re for lesbians having lesbian sex? How is it so very threatening to you that you literally can’t even entertain the possibility that it might make some people uncomfortable, or allow them their discomfort – even if you don’t think the site erred by including that item – instead of criticizing, shaming, and making accusations? How is it any skin off your nose to say “I don’t personally agree, but I can see how you’d feel that way, and it’s a tricky line to draw when discussing the sexual experiences of bi/pan women in this type of context”? Yet J. has been nastily been called a gold-star lesbian, been challenged, mocked, scoffed at. What kind of a response is that?

      • Yes but Respect as you say is a two way street. Every damn time a cis lesbian says something that offends her or makes her feel uncomfortable you guys shoot her down and tell her she is overreacting or a bigot for not accepting whatever it is that made her uncomfortable in the first place. All j and a few other posters said was we see praises and glorification of piv/hetero sex every damn day. Every where we go piv is held valuable or the meaning of “true” sex. From friends to co-workers to the damn media that’s all we see. So sorry a few of us feel a little jaded that a girl feels empowered cowgirling a dude while he ejaculates in her. Yay we feel happy for you that you have good sex but just because you’re queer doesn’t mean everything you do will be defined by those exact terms. I’m gay but if I were to have a threesome with two dudes that would no shape or form be considered queer sex especially if they were to only focus on me. All i’m saying is hetero sex and that’s exactly what it is whether you like it or not is celebrated enough, would it really be difficult to be a little more considerate to the people who see it enough or makes them feel a little inadequate. I mean jesus this is a girl-on-girl website am I really asking for to much. Isn’t screwing cis men celebrated enough?

        • I get your points about society as a whole, and how piv sex is valued as “true”. But this is a different place. Clearly piv sex isn’t valued as the only true form of sex here. If that were the case, then yes, it would be totally wrong. But that’s not what’s happening here.

          As I said sex is a personal thing. It means different things to different people. Perhaps to you piv sex classifies as hetero sex, it’s your right to think that. But it’s also my right to disagree, when that piv in the sex involves a person who is queer identifying.

          I do think that this should be a safe space for women who are attracted to women to discuss a number of topics, including their sex lives, even if their sex lives are not exclusively female. Bisexual and trans people are relegated to an smaller, crueler space in society than lesbians. And I think it’s great that AS is place where women in the LGBT community (regardless of what part of the LGBT equation they come from – excluding G obviously) can come together and discuss things as frivolous as vapid fluff and things as serious as this thread.

          I guess it’s just a difference of opinions. Life sure would be pretty dull if we all agreed.

          • All i’m saying is having sex with cis men is praised enough and what the op complained about was completely valid. Everyone is welcomed here obviously but don’t get mad when you go on a website that is specifically for women who only love women and brag about the bj you gave your boyfriend last night or the sex you have with men casually and people find it offensive and unecessary. Sorry you feel your sexuality isn’t embraced enough especially the hetero relationships/sex in LGBT groups but sweetheart just step outside and you will blend in with the rest of the world whether you like it or not. Sorry that a small percentage of the human population would like to not be constantly reminded of that and discuss something else more productive.

        • It’s just so fun when you try to have a discussion and you get a condescending lecture instead.

          Also get your facts straight hun. I’m not bi, so you can get off your high horse thanks. I just happen to be interested in supporting bi and trans people in their effort to be seen and heard in the queer community.

          • Sweetheart I could care less what your sexuality is i’m speaking for myself and the few other lesbians you guys haven’t chased off this site yet, that it is exhausting to see the love for dick/men every freaking where. I was simply saying that there billions of other sites to talk about your live screwing men like the other 3 billion women. We lesbians are already painted a bad light on this website already so i’m honestly not shocked for the disregard or the dismissiveness we get we genuinely have complaints. You maybe ok with everyone shitting on you because there a minority as well. But I don’t care how many damn letters you fit in the LGBT acronym you say or do some passive agressive things or do/say things that I find offensive i’m going to call it out.

            I’ve been on this website long enough to see who you guys defend and attack. I have no problem being the big bad wolf on this site since we already are since we’re so goddamn “priviledge” as you say.

          • Stop saying “WE LESBIANS” as if we’re all one big fucking monolith. I’m so sick and tired of being dragged onto the wrong side of this, okay? You do not speak for me or anyone else simply because we happen to use the same identifiers.

          • Paper0Flowers – “Stop saying “WE LESBIANS” as if we’re all one big fucking monolith”

            Indeed, should be “women who are sexually attracted only to women”, since as seen above, we even have lesbian identified women here who think that sex with a man is super hot and fulfilling (sic).

        • You seriously think you are entitled to come in here and demand respect when you have not shown respect to literally anyone? You (speaking collectively to a few of you in this thread) did not simply respectfully state your feelings of discomfort and leave it at that. Here is what you did do:

          -You insisted that the survey should be run according to your preferences, and that one minor comment you felt uncomfortable with should not have been allowed to be posted here, or possibly even stated on the survey in complete anonymity, at all.

          -You made ridiculously overblown extrapolations about how one minor comment might lead to THE WHOLE SITE BEING TAKEN OVER BY HETERO SECKS, OMG or that it is somehow the equivalent of people fucking in public (?!).

          -You jumped to the totally cis-centric conclusion that the sex being described was “hetero”, when there are a dozen ways I can come up with off the top of my head that it might not be (the commenter might be a trans woman or genderqueer, or the person they’re fucking might be genderqueer, or a post-op trans man, or a non-op trans man wearing a strap-on, or a masculine-identified butch lesbian wearing a strap-on, or they might both be lesbians engaging in fantasy role-play, or any number of other possibilities).

          -You demanded that “hetero sex” be defined the way you prefer, ignoring that others have different and equally valid opinions on the subject and that you don’t get to be the ultimate authority on how everyone defines their own experiences.

          -You trotted out tired tropes about bi women supposedly being able to fit in with hetero society, when study after study shows that bi people top the charts in depression and suicide rates, largely because being erased in hetero society is just as awful for them as being closeted is for any other queer person.

          -You made sarcastic references to how you’ve “heard that before” as if this discussion in any way compares to the kind of homophobic silencing that straight people inflict on queer people. This is actually in itself your own super offensive way of trying to silence other marginalized people whose point of view you clearly don’t want to listen to.

          -You completely failed to acknowledge the bi women in this thread who tried to express to you how this constant overreaction to any little thing that reminds people of their existence makes them feel further alienated, silenced and pushed to the margins. And NO, I don’t mean we need to start holdoing roundtables where bi women describe their sexual experiences with men in explicit detail on this particular website. Nobody is asking for anything like that. I mean that when one or two occasional references to these kinds of experiences makes its way onto these pages, it is not cause for full-blown overwrought panic.

          Honestly, if “safety” to you means absolutely no mention ever of anything that you find even slightly uncomfortable, then no, maybe this is not the right website for you. Creating a safe space for a diversity of people means sometimes negotiating and making compromises for the ways in which “safety” means different things to different people. Bi women are already forced to negotiate their own feelings of safety in many ways on this and every other queer-oriented website in existence, and for you to flat-out insist that no mere mention of their experiences that cause you any discomfort must ever appear here is to effectively slam shut the door on any possibility of compromise or respectful dialogue. So no, you don’t get to attempt to do that and then come in here asking for respect in return.

          • Seems to me the first person disrespected was J. who did no more than question the inclusion of cis hetero PIV sex, which – whether you feel it was right to include it or not – is hardly a shocking position for a lesbian on a girl-on-girl site to take.

            You seem to find safety to mean “No even slightly critical discussion of things I personally like to do ever” but also don’t want to afford that same safety to lesbians. You seem to think that only lesbians should negotiate and compromise (after all, J. made one specific comment about one specific inclusion in one specific and explicitly identified as lesbians-having-lesbian-sex survey and was immediately slammed). Lesbians are forced to negotiate their own feelings of safety IN THE WHOLE WORLD. The people who seem intent on slamming the door shut on dialogue are the people like…well, you.

            And I say all of that as a bisexual woman.

          • Actually, you’re quite wrong. I welcome critical discussion when it is respectful. 99% of the bullshit going on here has not been. J was not “slammed” – the initial responses to her were no more reactionary than her own first comment.

            And did you even read the part where I said bi women already negotiate and compromise ALL THE TIME?

            Or where they also have to negotiate their feelings of safety IN THE WHOLE WORLD?

            No, you didn’t, because the people who make communication difficult are the ones who don’t take the time to actually listen and understand what’s being said – people like… well, you. Go chase yourself in circles, I’m not interested.

          • @chandra Lol yeah, no. Go do your scolding to the people who freely throw around insults like “puritanical” and “gold-star” and “nauseating” (for being uncomfortable with male/female sex mentioned in a SPECIFICALLY LESBIAN SEX SURVEY – nauseating!) and all the other things said to J. throughout the comments. Lesbians also experience all those things you’re mentioning, and guess what! Listening and understanding applies to lesbians saying “I’m uncomfortable with graphic description of PIV sex between a woman and a person identified as a man and called him in a LESBIAN SEX SURVEY” too! There was literally nothing reactionary about her initial comment TO THE AUTHOR OF THE ARTICLE and not to ANY commenters or the people who read and consider Autostraddle a safe space, and there’s been EVERYTHING dismissive, policing and reactionary in the comments to HER.

            Bye.

          • I already made a detailed and extensive list of all the shitty things that have been levelled against bi women in this thread, which are indefensible regardless of any childish argument over who said what mean thing first, and I’m not going to repeat myself. Respect was NOT SHOWN before it was demanded from others. We would not be having this debate if it had been. And I brought up the things you failed to read in my last post because you falsely accused me of saying that only lesbians should compromise.

            I’d continue to point out the hypocrisy, tunnel vision and hyperbole going on here if I didn’t think it was going to fall on deaf ears, but I’m done. But you know, go ahead and keep talking, you’re doing my job for me. “Bye.”

          • @chandra No. You listed things leveled against bi women IN THIS WORLD. Not in this thread and not by J. I’m not surprised you can’t make the distinction though.

    • This is so tedious. You seem to be assuming that bisexual women are pretty much heterosexual women and somehow get acceptance in straight society. Completely wrong. Bisexual women have to deal with plenty of shit from straight people.

      Autostraddle as I understand it is largely a space for women who like women. That means bisexual women. That means bisexual women are entitled to talk about sex, whether it means sex with a woman or genderqueer people or non binary people or men. There’s nothing gross about any of those types of sex.

      Bisexual women are just as entitled to this space as lesbians are.

      • So we pretty much agree fuck the feelings of some lesbians for wanting to have one just one website that caters to women that doesn’t talk about how awesome men and sex with men are. Got it.

        • KP, you’re freaking out over two sentences that probably took all of one second to read. You could have just read them and moved on to all of the many sentences celebrating sex between women. No one here as any problem with lesbian sex or any other kind of sex that doesn’t involve men. Most commenters here love having sex with women, and those that don’t are mostly asexual, not straight. No one is “shitting on you” for being a lesbian. No one even suggested that female/male sex is superior, and if anyone tried I’m sure their comment would be swiftly deleted as a violation of the comments policy – which is as it should be, since that would be a really horrible and discriminatory thing to say. Bisexual women are not a threat to you, so please stop lashing out against them.

          • No one said anything about bisexuality or m/f being superior. Someone justifiably asked why a woman having sex with a man was on a survey about lesbian sex and then when someone answered that it wasn’t just only about lesbian sex but queer sex in general, then someone continued to ask what the hell was queer about riding a dude and him cumming in you and then misandry and all the “lesbians” screwing dudes and saying they were still queer (like anyone gives a crap) and women talking about dry humping there boyfriends in lesbian spaces however they please and peoples true colors began to show. I was just acknowledging the elephant in the room. That’s all.

          • And you’re freaking out about one comment that took all of one second to read and you could have passed on by, and yet here we all are. Lesbians are not a threat to you, so please stop lashing out against them.

            Sincerely,

            A bisexual woman

          • Honey – there is a difference between reading about something you’re not personally interested in and reading something talking about how horrible it is for bisexual women to share their experiences in queer spaces.

            And it’s not just one comment, it’s the hundreds of comments making similar declarations in the many, many, similar debates I’ve witnessed. On most sites, I would just stop reading. But this is Autostraddle – the one place where I usually feel like the comments are safe to read and aren’t going to filled with people saying horrible things about one another. I want to fight for that.

            I absolutely hate this. I hate that queer women are attacking each other. I hate that both lesbian and bisexual women are being made to feel unsafe and unwanted. I hate that I feel compelled to keep coming back to these conversations even though I’m just going to end up feeling increasingly frustrated and hurt.

            One queer women described an empowering sexual experiance with a man in an anonymous survey, and her response was posted because Riese found it amusing. How did this, which should have been no big deal, turn into another of these massive arguments that make everyone feel like shit? I don’t understand why this constantly happens and it makes me so sad.

          • No. First, it was a graphic description of clearly cis-het PIV sex included in an article about a LESBIAN SEX survey. It was not “sharing experiences in a queer space.” If you literally cannot grasp the idea that not all experiences will be appropriate to share in all venues (and again, J.’s ONLY OBJECTION EVER was it being INCLUDED IN THE POST BY RIESE, not said, not experienced, not shared on a personal level), I don’t even know what to say to you. Second, there are not hundreds of comments ON THIS POST saying it’s horrible for bi/pan woman to share experiences in queer spaces. There ARE hundreds of comments criticizing J. for merely questioning its inclusion. This is Autostraddle, as you say. A lesbian should feel safe in expressing discomfort with the inclusion of PIV cis-het sex in a lesbian sex survey. That you would aggressive insist on the right to force her discomfort and then compound it by slamming her for even daring to express her discomfort…that is fucked up.

            Saying “why was this included here?” is not attacking bi/pan women, it’s not attacked lesbians who have had sex with men, it’s not attacking ANYONE, and yet you are all citing it as waterproof justification to attack others. How did a question, which should have been no big deal, turn into another of these massive arguments that make everyone feel like shit and make LESBIANS feel unwelcome at a GIRL-ON-GIRL SITE? J. spoke her concern to the author. You simply couldn’t let that go, all while lecturing her that she should have let her concern go. That you can’t see the disconnect is troubling.

        • “we pretty much agree fuck the feelings of some lesbians for wanting to have one just one website that caters to women that doesn’t talk about how awesome men and sex with men are. Got it.”

          i realize this issue has evolved beyond its original jumping-off point, but continuing to use my inclusion of that statement (which i obviously regret!) for the basis of this argument isn’t logically sound.

          if i’d included that quote intentionally to celebrate hetero-cis PIV sex, to empower women who have sex with men, to say men and man-sex are awesome, then this argument might work. but i agree with you that this isn’t the space for that and doesn’t need to be, and including a statement for those reasons would be messed up. i agree. if we agree, how can i be against you?

          that wasn’t my intent. it was a mistake. i thought it was a misandrist joke about killing men with our cunts, i now realize how it can look like something else altogether. conclusions about autostraddle’s mission and intent can only be reached by looking at things autostraddle intended to do, not times autostraddle accidentally betrayed its intent.

          in 2003, i turned left out of our condo complex across three rows of traffic. because of the glare, i hadn’t seen a car coming in the opposite direction and thus, we smashed right into each other. my car was fucked, i paid a ton of tickets, their car was fucked, my insurance went up.

          what you’re doing right now is like if right after that, you’d been like “well, looks like riese no longer wants to drive like the rest of us, she seems pretty excited about smashing into other cars, i guess that’s how she drives now. I wouldn’t want to be next to her on the highway!”

          but no — i didn’t mean to hit that car, and i never want to hit another car again! i want to continue driving safely, just like i always have. i want to turn safely without damaging my own vehicle or others. in fact, i never turn left out of a residential street across multiple rows of traffic anymore, ’cause i’m so fucking scared of the same thing happening again.

          the fact that there are other people on this thread are saying they can relate to that experience or that they understand why i didn’t see the car doesn’t make the accident any more intentional.

          so, i’m sorry, it won’t happen again, nobody wants their car insurance to go up.

          • I’m another person about whom people can fairly say, “She doesn’t even go here” : I don’t read the site all that often, and this is the first time I’ve ever commented. But the reason for that is that I do feel so out of place here, almost the same sort of feeling I had when I was the only out lesbian in my rural high school. And I would hope it matters to a site that’s supposed to be for women who love women if some lesbians end up feeling left out? I don’t want to say that everything has to reflect only my own experiences, but it was an unpleasant surprise to see a comment that seems to glorify cis piv selected as something especially worthy of notice for queer women to read –again, I’m not trying to dictate what kind of sex people have, or to say they should never talk about it, but to choose specifically a comment that celebrates cis piv without saying anything at all about W-W sex as something that deserves special attention on a website for queer women… And then you explained your reasons for choosing it, and I think I can understand that, but I noticed that you went back and changed other comments that offended people, while this one was left up without an explanatory note or anything, so that did give me the impression that concerns about it were considered less important. It might be rude of me to come into this space that obviously isn’t for me and complain, but I just feel so lonely seeing that there are so few places to talk about w-w stuff, and then the few places like this that exist have some sort of very tightly-knit culture that I can’t imagine how to get into… I’m not expressing myself well, but the inclusion of the comment made me sad somehow, and then it was sadder still to see, from the reactions to the few people who felt the same way, that it would be difficult to express that sadness without it coming off as some sort of attack on bi women, or different definitions of queerness, or something. It just read to me (as others said) like a celebration of the same sorts of sex we can already see celebrated on websites for straight women everywhere.

          • It’s quite disheartening to believe that nothing radical or queer can ever happen between a cis-man and a cis-woman. If we think of “queer = non-normative, going against cisheteropatriarchal binaries”, then that quote to me definitely fits the bill.

            If I ever come across the sentiment of a straight woman “destroying a penis with her powerful vagina” on a website that caters to straight women, then I will attribute that to queer success in fucking with gender norms and expectations because I have never, ever found that sentiment in a heterosexist space. Ever.

          • I was so happy when I read the now infamous survey answer. And now, after reading this barrage of disgusted comments, I’m back to that sinking feeling of feeling like a weirdo who doesn’t belong in either straight and queer realms.

            It’s funny, for all the self acceptance that the internet has provided me regarding my bisexuality, it’s probably done more damage by exposing me to peoples biphobia.

            Yes you are entitled to your opinion about content, but
            I think a lot of you are misusing, and abusing the term ‘safe space’. You sound like Toni and Candice of Women and Women First. One sentence about PIV sex, does not make this entire website not a safe space for lesbian women.

            Those who have been leaving sarcastic, dis-respectful and vitriolic posts, I have to wonder, does Autostraddle even want your reader ship at all?

          • Space Mermaid – if I could add something, to me, as a lesbian, it’s problematic mainly because it’s encouraging damaging homophobic myths about lesbians, that we are men haters but deep down we need and crave d*ck, just try to control it.
            After all it’s presented as “lesbian” sex survey, so people from the outside that will go here have every reason to think it is about lesbians, not bisexuals.

            And their opinion would be confirmed by looking at those comments. We have lesbian identified woman here who considers herself to be “the gayest of the gay”, who also says that sex with men is “super hot and fulfilling”. Another lesbian identified woman wishes she would do the same as the woman from the survery to men she had sex with before. And those comments received lots of up-votes from site’s members.

          • I feel like the main question raised is…

            Is accommodating lesbian identified women who might be triggered by the mention of PIV sex more important than including and acknowledging bi women, and honoring the full spectrum of queer sexuality and experiences?

            In my opinion no.

            I think we are forgetting that Reise did not compose ‘the sentence’. It was an expression of a queer persons experience, and makes up part of the true face of the people that answered the survey.

            In a way, would leaving it out not be censorship, and lying to us all?

            The only solution I can see, would be to have a trigger warning.

            Also: Since when do we shame other people for who they like to have sex with? That’s what homophobes do to us. Countering heteronormativity by being like ‘ew, well I think YOUR sex is gross’ will get us nowhere, because human life defies labels, especially queer human life.

          • i’m kind of sad that you regret including it (whether intended as a misandrist joke or not). i don’t know how it’s a mistake or somehow giving evidence to homophobes and sexists that all women really want dicks in our cunts (and everyone is cis). one person’s experiences belong to that one person, and anyone who uses it to stereotype doesn’t need it to be a jackhole.

            we bi and multisexual women are excluded from the straight world and the lesbian world. sometimes, in order to find some sort of safety from homophobes, we find comfort and meaning in ‘lesbian’ and ‘gay’. it’s either an inclusive term that includes all sorts of sexual orientations (i’ve been berated before about how ‘gay’ is inclusive and lgbt is too complex and needs to be dropped) or it’s exclusive to 100% homosexual individuals. that the english language limits how we describe our experience isn’t reason enough to exclude us and our experiences from places.

            our experiences also aren’t celebrations of how much better heterosexuality is than homosexuality. our experiences are celebrations of ourselves. there’s nothing that says the person who made the comment about being on top of a man was saying sex between cismen and ciswomen is inherently better than sex between two people who identify as women. they said they felt more powerful when having sex in that specific manner than when they had sex in another specific manner. that’s a celebration of sex, not of one type of sex being better than another.

            that comment would not be appreciated on straight websites that talk about cismen and ciswomen having sex. straight cismen would fetishize the hell out of it. it would in no way be celebrated.

            i hate the terms ‘lesbian sex’ or ‘straight sex.’ i never have lesbian sex or straight sex. i have sex with women or sex with men. when we say things like ‘lesbian sex,’ we make a direct association of sexual orientation with sexual activity. it is wildly unfair to the wide variety of our sex lives that do not always match up with the labels we are given with the english language. and it’s wildly unfair to exclude people because the phrase ‘lesbian sex’ was included in the survey.

            please don’t regret including someone’s experience. the person who posted that obviously identifies as queer and has had sex with women. there are so few places in the world for them to be able to express their sexuality without being dismissed (something that’s obviously happening in the comments). as editor, i would hope you wouldn’t dismiss it. they were celebrating sex, not heternormitivity. wasn’t that the point of the survey?

          • Hi Amelia,

            My comment about wishing to feel that empowered while I had sex with men before I came out as a lesbian was because I wish I had that much self-confidence and security with myself as a sexual person. But I didn’t. And that contributed to my discomfort with being sexually expressive or confident in what I wanted. That’s all. That doesn’t make me less of a gay woman. Please don’t insinuate that my past experiences with men make me any less of a lesbian or any less qualified to respond to these kinds of comments about lesbians en masse.

          • Paper0Flowers – I’ve noticed your comment only now, and apparently I incorrectly assumed that your earlier comment meant that you are sexually attracted to men while identifying as lesbian, like the other poster.

            Just to be clear, behavior doesn’t matter to me. Having sex with someone doesn’t mean that you actually have to enjoy or desire it. Nor being a “goldstar” have to mean you’re attracted only to women.

      • I just want to say that regardless of how I feel about the decision to include that particular response, I’m really heartened and happy about all these people standing up for/rallying around bi women on this website. Sometimes I feel like we get forgotten by everybody and it’s nice to know that even if we aren’t talked about all the time (which is fine), we’re accepted by most people, even the gold stars.

      • And no one is saying otherwise. They’ve simply expressed discomfort with THAT PARTICULAR INCLUSION in THIS PARTICULAR SURVEY. Is that really just too delicate a concept to grasp for people?

    • Huh, the way I took that response, it seemed to be kind of a confession, like “I’m queer, but since this is an invitation to really open up, the most dominant I’ve ever felt was in this certain situation that might not be considered queer. It was a different sort of experience. Go figure, life.”

      People aren’t neat, we’re not simple, we’re not easy, and most of the time we’re thinking of things that are totally not appropriate or germane to what’s going on on the outside. Like, almost all the time. We don’t do or think what other people expect we would, and neither do those people. I kind of appreciated the candor. The way I took it, it fit right in with the person who confessed she sometimes randomly talks about comic books during sex. Like: “you asked me to tell you something I want you to know, and it’s that I’m not that easy to categorize.”

        • Okay 1) That question wasn’t directed at anyone particular. Perhaps I should of added lol myself, because the was kind of joke question that I never expected an answer to. 2) I never said you were out of line. I never even addressed you directly 3) Although I’ve been following the heated debate on this article, I’ve refrained from offering my opinions on the matter because I fear too many won’t care if they sounded intelligent or fair and dismiss anyones argument on the basis of identify only.

          • @turtlet-vs-puffling Funny, I could say the same thing and it’d be at the precise opposite person you’re saying it to. Apparently you think 1) it’s perfectly appropriate and above reproach for a cis man to question (fairly derisively) women’s choices in pubic hair style, 2) for him to do so after he’s told a lesbian she’s out of line, and 3) that the person you should make a snotty comment to, on a girl-on-girl, LGBT-focused website, is her for pointing out the disconnect.

            Hm, I can think of some egos that are out of control. Hint: none of them belong to J.

          • I just want to clarify and apologize for any confusion over a sentence that could have been better worded. It was based on curiosity of how to define the term #26, not intended as any kind of criticism. Also I don’t think anyone should be above reproach.

  14. Soo when I first moved into our new house with my fiance (Canadian came to America,so we’re half uhaul)
    Her little dog couldn’t even deal with the idea of me making her leave the bed for sexy time. So when we first tried locking our newly united dog children out of the bedroom there was a very loud. Prolonged chorus of sorrow that was sung..for 20 minutes. Accompanied by door scratching…

    It was an adjustment time for all of us. But the sex was entirely worth it. If we weren’t busy laughing.

    • J. is in no way being biphobic. What J. is pointing out is rather simple. There is a difference between how we see ourselves in terms of identity and the content for a site that states it is about “girl on girl culture.” For example, if a person identifies as bisexual that is cool. If that person is currently with a man that is of course fine. However the notion that that means that same woman should focus on her sex life with her boyfriend on a site that is about “girl on girl culture” makes no sense. Yet when this silliness is called out by someone such as J. they are accused of biphobia.

      This isn’t a complex idea. While how we identify and human sexuality may be complex, the concept of a site being about “girl on girl culture” is rather simple. J. and others don’t care that bisexual women post here. What they care about is that this is a site for “girl on girl culture” which means there is simply no reason to post about sex with men. To post about sex with men on a “lesbian sex survey” is illogical. For Riese to then post that post is ludicrous.

      There is no reason that post # 10 should have been in there. It is insulting to common sense for it to be there.

    • I’ll repeat my comment here since it became a little messy above:

      To me, a lesbian, that response about sex with a man is problematic mainly because it’s encouraging damaging homophobic myths about lesbians, that we are men haters but deep down we need and crave d*ck, just try to gain control over it.
      After all it’s presented as “lesbian” sex survey, so people from the outside that will go here have every reason to think it is about lesbians, not bisexuals.

      And their opinion would be confirmed by looking at those comments. We have lesbian identified woman here who spoke in defense of that answer, who considers herself to be “the gayest of the gay” and who also says that sex with men is “super hot and fulfilling”. Another lesbian identified woman wishes she would do the same as the woman from the survery to men she had sex with before. And those comments received lots of up-votes from site’s members.

    • All because she questioned – MERELY QUESTIONED – the presence of a comment about solely cis hetero PIV sex on a lesbians-having-lesbian-sex survey. I know what that sounds like to me, and it isn’t biphobia.

      • You could not be more right. The term biphobia is often thrown out for incidents where the concern is far more about visibility for same sex female relationships. For example, there is a show called Chasing Life. While she does not label herself, the character of Brenna is attracted to both men and women. Recently her and her girlfriend broke up. My desire is to see her either get back with her girlfriend or end up in a romance with another woman. I expressed that I do not have a desire for her to enter a romance with a man. This could be misconstrued as biphobia. Yet to me is it a case where television is almost solely made of male/female romances and representation of a same sex female romance is rare. So if there is a bisexual female character on tv my preference is the show focus on her romance with a woman instead of being in the 8th romance on a show between a man and a woman while no same sex female romance exists. That does not indicate a hostility towards bisexuality. That does not indicate a desire for Brenna to be a lesbian. It indicates an awareness of a lack of representation when it comes to women dating women and extremely heavy representation of men dating women on tv.

        Still that is the show’s choice. What makes this situation with # 10 above puzzling and misguided is, unlike that show, this is a place that states it is about girl on girl culture. So while a claim of biphobia may be misguided in the Chasing Life scenario, it is incredibly wrong here. I listen to vinyl and cd’s and stream songs. However I would not go to a site about the wonders of vinyl and post how much I love listening to cd’s. If called out by someone it wouldn’t mean they are anti-cd. They are simply pointing out what this site is for.

    • nah. y’all can insult and imply i’m a bigot all you want, but i will keep resisting calling lesbians biphobic for simply not wanting to hear about hetero piv in wiw/wsw spaces 🙂

  15. I’ll repeat my comment here since it became a little messy above:

    To me, a lesbian, that response about sex with a man is problematic mainly because it’s encouraging damaging homophobic myths about lesbians, that we are men haters but deep down we need and crave d*ck, just try to gain control over it.
    After all it’s presented as “lesbian” sex survey, so people from the outside that will go here have every reason to think it is about lesbians, not bisexuals.

    And their opinion would be confirmed by looking at those comments. We have lesbian identified woman here who spoke in defense of that answer, who considers herself to be “the gayest of the gay” and who also says that sex with men is “super hot and fulfilling”. Another lesbian identified woman wishes she would do the same as the woman from the survery to men she had sex with before. And those comments received lots of up-votes from site’s members.

    • One more thing to add – it is said in the article that the survey is open to all women who have sex with women, but in my opinion it’s not enough to make visitors outside from the community to understand it’s not necessarily about lesbians.

      Maybe some of you have heard claims that some study showed that over 90% of lesbians had sex with men and had more male sex partners than straight women.
      And that study exists, but it was about Women Who Have Sex With Women, not lesbians. I’ve seen even some medical sites not understanding the distinction, so it needs to be stressed more.

      One more thing in reference to that study – it was not about all women who have sex with women, but those who were seeking treatment in some Australian clinic specializing in STD and HIV. So women who only had sex with women automatically were much less likely to seek help there, since STD’s are thought to be much less likely to be transmitted by sex between women (although keep in mind it’s not impossible).

    • And any of the comments expressing discomfort with it were treated with scorn, derision, anger, hostility, accusations and mockery. J. isn’t supposed to police or shame, but apparently it’s open season on her feelings and comfort level. Yeah, it totally fosters open dialogue and a feeling of safety to immediately castigate anyone who dares to be uncomfortable with something sexual in nature. That’s totally cool. That’s what being sex positive means, right?? You have to be completely cool with anything anyone could possibly do, there’s no such thing as discussion or critical analysis or consideration of other viewpoints withing disparate but also marginalized groups.

      Ugh.

  16. After completing a full survey about queer sex, a (I assume) bi participant was asked if she had anything further to add. Clearly she wanted to say a lil something about sex with men. And you’re all throwing a fit because she dared to remain visible, she refused to be erased? I’m pretty sure Riese included that comment so to increase Bi *inclusion* into this community. Which is so clearly needed judging by these comments. It’s really nobody problem if the comment made you feel icky, except your own.

    • This is a site for girl on girl culture. There seems to be this illogical belief that keeping the focus on girl on girl culture some how implies that bisexual women are being excluded. That is, pardon my annoyance, hogwash. If I want to read about women and men having sex there are a million sites to do so. This is a site for girl on girl culture. There is a difference between expecting a site that is focused on girl on girl culture not to be a site that focuses on men and women having sex and bi-erasure. No one here is saying bisexual women can’t post here. Just have the common dignity to realize that, despite one’s sexuality, this is still a site about girl on girl culture. If a person feels left out because they can’t discuss the glory of their sex with men, there are plenty of sites for that.

      To assist you with understanding this logic, I will use the same analogy I used before. I like listening to music by streaming, cd’s, 8-track and vinyl. If I post on a site designed to appreciate vinyl, I am not going to post about the glories of streaming. It is common sense. If I was called out, it would be foolish of me to accuse the people on that site of being hostile to those who love cd’s.

      As someone who is bisexual, I respect this is not the place to discuss sex with men. It really is not that complicated to understand.

      • A/S focuses on girl-on-girl culture, yes, but this specific article is about how females who enjoy sex with females have sex. An important part about this topic, is that some females who enjoy sex with females also enjoy it with men.
        Bringing this up adds to the dialogue, and was literally 2% of the list. It is not off topic, and it not hijacking the article to glorify piv sex. The focus is still very much on girl-on-girl culture.

        • Why is it that one point-of-view adds to the dialogue, but another point of view is “silencing,” “policing,” “shaming,” and “closing the door on discussion”?

          Seriously, why the everloving fuck are people SO THREATENED by the simple statement “Why was this included? Here is why it makes me uncomfortable.”? What is SO UNBELIEVABLY IMPOSSIBLE about responding “I can understand your viewpoint and your discomfort, it’s something to consider and discuss further.”? It is breathtakingly unbelievable to me what people are saying in these comments and how adamantly, aggressively, nastily myopic they’re being in refusing to even allow the POSSIBILITY of considering someone else’s viewpoint, someone else who is in the SAME OPPRESSED SUBSET OF SOCIETY, someone EQUALLY subject to marginalization and erasure.

          Un. Believable.

          • Both sides started out pleasant and understanding, and seemed to grow steadily heated at the same rate. I do regret getting caught up in my feelings. I am sorry.
            It did get out of hand, on both sides.
            I have now cooled down, stepped back and looked at the big picture. I will try not to let things that hit so hard get the best of me in the future.
            Maybe A/S isn’t the right community for me.

          • @turtlet-vs-puffling I have to strongly disagree with you that both sides started out pleasant and understanding. Particularly on the understanding part – in looking back over the thread I don’t see a single person besides Riese actually consider J.’s comments thoughtfully and with a mind to understanding and allowing her the right to question or be uncomfortable with the item’s inclusion. I do see a WHOLE LOT of “gold-star lesbian” disparagement, comments about policing, accusations equating J.’s question with bisexuals feeling unwelcome everywhere, accusations of biphobia, gross misrepresentations of her statements (“I REALLY DISLIKE THAT J THINKS THAT YOU’RE ONLY ALLOWED TO IDENTIFY AS BI IF YOU’VE HAD SEX WITH WOMEN” – never once said ANYWHERE), comment after comment after comment of people being snide and dismissive and hypocritical.

            And it seems like A/S is far more a site for you than it is for the people on the other “side,” so it seems silly to distance yourself from a community you enjoy. There is very clearly a place for you here. But, you know, you spoke earlier about how it’s hard to feel like you’re hearing “get out, we don’t want you here” – have you considered that the aggressive, angry, insulting posts towards “gold-star lesbians” and the like, combined with the absolute refusal to acknowledge that not every sexual experience an LGBTQ woman has will be appropriate in every specific circumstance, is doing precisely that towards J./the other commenters who’ve spoke up, in addition to countless others who have decided NOT to speak up because of the abusive and demeaning things being said about lesbians in an ostensibly safe place for women who have sex with women, which lesbians most definitely are?

            And all because she dared to say “I don’t feel that was appropriate in this specific article.” That seems FAR more limiting and unwelcoming to me than ANY of J.’s comments, by far.

    • Hello! Firstly thank you for your support and that of so many people on this thread, but honestly, it might be misplaced! You said “I’m pretty sure Riese included that comment so to increase Bi *inclusion* into this community” — that’s not true. although we are deeply committed to bisexual inclusion and that’s reflected in our strong & supportive community of bi, pan, and otherwise non-monosexual readers… that’s not why I included the comment! as i explain upthread, that to me it was a misandric statement of lethal power over men that made me guffaw with glee and thus transcended the limitations of topic, as many listling items over the years have done. having read #10’s explanation below, i realize that probably my own personal history and those of my friends informed my perspective on this situation. but i don’t think it needs to be a big deal to hear it mentioned like this, either?

      but none of the senior staff, including our bisexual senior editor, thinks that writing about sexual situations between cis men and cis women makes sense as a move to make an environment that honors the experiences of bisexual women and lesbians and fosters a community containing both. i think a lot of what hodge c said was pretty dead-on.

      <3

      • It was misandric statement of lethal power over men, you were correct in that it’s just from a weirder, more complex, convoluted, and different place than the majority of AFAB people. Maybe putting it closer to the bottom would have made people less angry, but I wouldn’t bet on it. I never doubt people’s ability to be angered by anything, that’s never a safe bet in my experience.

        • And yet, not everyone agrees that it was a misandric statement of lethal power over men. Weird, huh? Even MORE weird than people’s ability to be angered by a simple question and subsequent (and civil, when it comes to what was said between J. and Riese) discussion about the appropriateness of its inclusion! Ain’t that a kick in the head.

      • @hodge and @riese, okay so the debate about PIV aside, I would just like to take this opportunity to challenge us to think beyond “girl on girl.” It’s a tagline, a jumping-off point, and it doesn’t have to be a way of excluding other configurations. Because people are more complex than that.

        My boyfriend isn’t a girl, but he’s got a vagina, and it’s not like there are a lot of other news/culture outlets on the internet where I can talk about and celebrate our sex life, as I also honor and celebrate my status as “mostly-gay but then I fell in love with someone who identifies mostly as male, totally confusing everyone in my life I had just come out to, and complicating my life and identity, but that’s love for ya.” So I embrace AS as a place where I can be myself, even if my relationship isn’t strictly “girl on girl.” And that’s just one example of the human complexities that go far beyond a tagline.

        That’s why this debate is so tiring. I am queer, my BF is queer, and we deserve to exist in safe and celebratory spaces without having to show proof or resort to talking about his trans status in order to do so. Yes, sometimes we are afforded privilege because we look hetero to the untrained eye. But we’re not, and we have just as much on the line as any lesbian couple re: emotional and physical safety when people find that out.

        I know I’m rambling about my own specific situation, but I’m just trying to say that this stuff is often not as simple as “girl on girl” or “not girl on girl.” I have always understood that tagline to provide a frame of reference, not be an edict on who is allowed. 🙂

        • Oh, and I should clarify: there are, of course, plenty of couples with one or more trans people in them who identify as straight/hetero. The fact that my BF has genitalia more common in women does not make him queer; his identifying as such, preferring to date queer or lesbian women, (and “feeling somewhat female/lesbian during sex,” as he puts it) does.

  17. When did the [as] comments section go from “you do you” to “you do you but within the strict definitions of what I think you can be/do”?! I now before I found this magical place I felt like a weird little outcast of society. This site is like a warm home for many and to try and enforce your views of how someone should express their sexuality will make others feel awful and left out or unwanted.

    TL:DR being left out or made to feel unwanted feels bad especially in a safe space

    • So why is it that someone merely QUESTIONING the inclusion of an explicitly and obviously non-lesbian sex act on a lesbian survey is enough to eradicate everything else on the site to make you feel unwelcome? Are you unable to see how lesbians who only have sex with women might feel the same about having even an explicitly lesbian sex survey be aggressively defended as an appropriate place for bi/pan women to discuss non-lesbian sex?

      • Honey, completely agree. At this point there is a massive lack of respect and a jawdropping arrogance being expessed. There is simply no reason for sex between men and women to be discussed here. As someone who is bisexual, I don’t see it making any sense at all to discuss men here. I don’t see biphobia here. What I do see is an astonishing arrogance in some people that seem to ignore that this is not site about how they love men. It is like people who logging on to an Orange is the New Black site to talk about their love for Mad Men. If people complain about that poster, they are not attacking the poster’s likes. They are not disrespecting that the person likes Mad Men too. They are just pointing out that it is an Orange is the Black site.

  18. Okay so those of you have seen the L Word remember Shane’s face when she saw the Hugo Boss ad for the first time?
    That was my face when the situation (what else should I call it) began to unfold, eventually my face got into that expression children’s faces get when the parental units are screaming at each other as comments got angrier

    I will not be sorry for who I am, because I’m not that scared kid anymore who felt more in common with monsters than people and once drafted a suicide note apologizing for having wasted resources by living for too long. Who felt so dirty when they realized they felt attraction to male persons too. And tried so hard to burn those feelings out.
    I’ve used bisexual to describe myself in life but I don’t think it’s the correct description. My life has been a checklist of abuse since childhood and the thing that attracts me to people enough to try to get with them is kindness.
    Being as AFAB people and women in general are socially conditioned or expected to be nurturing or behave in a nurturing manner I’ve always been more attracted to women. Additionally I think women identified people and AFAB people tend to band together and support each other because this world is a patriarchal world and humans are social animals we need a pack of our own.

    Having had the experience of someone trying to force me into having an orgasm and being detached from gash between my legs and not understanding why being penetrated feels good. Penetrating someone is awkward for me because even though I’m assured it feels good the by penetratee theirself, deep down my brain is going: no way this feels good the way the patriarchy thinks or says it does for a vagina haver but hey this person requested it and it makes them happy so I’m happy too.
    Tops, you understand that right? The joy of giving someone pleasure and getting pleasure from someone.

    One of my kinks has its’ roots in heroes being helpless and restrained by the villain or monster. Notice the word hero not heroine there. There’s a limit of things I feel comfortable doing to a woman identified person some of it is related to memories of things done to me against my will the rest is some sort of encoded gentlemanly benevolent sexism to never hit a lady or something(I’m fine with spanking a woman though which odd but not as odd me having that gentlemanly encoding despite not thinking of myself as a gentleman or anything beyond a Homo sapiens sapiens without overthinking it).

    Summary so far
    -mentally I’m separated from the idea that the penetrator specifically is the one in power
    -but feel very much the one giving pleasure is the one in power
    -am detached from my vagina.
    -am more comfortable ‘roughing up’ men then I am women
    -identifies with monsters and ‘the bad guys’
    You with me? All of this understood? Okay then.
    Did I mention how misandrist tween me was tho, biological masculinity seemed like an aberration, a twisted deformation from femaleness that took the world from us? How pure lesbians seemed and positively saintly transwomen were with all the suffering transwomen suffer. Transwomen are people not a holy symbol, badass people for sure though.

    Pretty sure I mentioned my disappointment in my lack of purity. Did I mention my fear that because people seemed to believe me a lesbian that someday I’d give in to the weakness and do a thing with a man and then someone would get the idea lesbianism is curable or not valid? I didn’t deserve to touch a woman because even if I had yet to sully myself I was still dirty, maybe she’d realize I was dirty. Or even worse I’d somehow make her dirty too when did get myself sullied. My little body was changing and men they take things and a woman’s body is something that like to take. So I was unsure if being sullied would be me giving to an inherent weakness or something that would be done to me.
    But no lucky me who opened myself up to ‘kindness’ was violated by hands, fingers, by phalanges. Not the horror of horrors, the real boss, a penis.

    I am aware that male genitalia make women feel unsafe, how much power our patriarchal world gives the penis. But for me now it is a toothless myth, something weak, fragile and easily defeated. Hands don’t become a puddle of flesh, hands have bones and do not yield.
    Another thing I’m aware of is why some men think women must want the D is because they really do think with their dicks. Men never really have to think outside their experiences and the way they view the world. So it’s only ‘reasonable’ to think that the intense pleasure they feel being inside MUST also be felt by the person they’re inside of.

    So keep in mind my summary up above and the abuses I’ve survived. Riding a man makes me feel power. Absolute dominant power with no guilt. I can strangle, strike, bite, forcefully restrain, terrorize, and degrade with minimal guilt while doing it to and believe me I am terrifying and goddess, does fear make me feel good in the twisted broken parts of my cobbled together soul.
    I know it’s not a very gay thing but fuck it’s a part of MY sex life and I’m queer and sort of a woman and that’s what the description of the survey asked for.
    Also it is amusingly misandrist.

    But really what I find empowering and fulfilling is trusting another human being enough to get naked, be alone with them and do anything. To be honest though cuddling naked with someone and being able to trust them enough to sleep in a bed with them is possibly one of the most empowering thing for me living through the shit I lived through.

    I am sorry we live in a world where multisexuality gives assholes who can’t see past their noses or drank the patriarchal koolaid stupidier ideas or makes monosexual women feel so undermined and unsafe. I understand anger and feeling like no place belongs to you.

    I am sorry that when those of us who fit under the bisexual umbrella don’t feel whole and when we try to be it feels like the spaces carved out to get away from heteronormativity and the man centered world are being taken from you. That is not what we intend. I am sorry the cishet world pits us against each other The fact I can be with another human in any capacity feels like a miracle, I will never be sorry or ashamed of that.

      • Riese, how about changing the subtitle from “girl-on-girl culture” to “girl with boys and/or girls culture”? After all, if someone is going to use this site to explain why they love having sex with men and you are going to express “I love you!” to them, it is abundantly clear this is no longer a “girl-on-girl culture” site and time to stop pretending it is. Regardless if one thinks # 10’s post is well written or self-indulgent or both does not matter.

        • if there’s one Big Autostraddle Feeling i have it is ‘don’t be mean to riese’

          like yeah ok she’s made mistakes because she is a human person. but she also gave us this great big autostraddle thing and/or like most of the past several years of her life. and if you didn’t think autostraddle had some worthwhile qualities why would you even bother to engage in this discussion/conversation/argument/situation?

          so like, be upset if you want to. i can see why everyone is, you have all laid that out p clearly! i don’t really want to get involved in who’s right/wrong because i really dislike being yelled at on the internet and don’t need to make it worse than it’s already going to be. but just:

          don’t be mean to riese. she is doing her best which is more than any of us really deserve

          • I am not being mean to Riese. I am being serious. If the site has reached a point where it no longer is focused on “girl-on-girl culture” but instead, out of a concern of not appearing inclusive, more just focused on women period than it makes sense to change the site heading. Personally the site has always seemed very inclusive and that is in great part due to Riese. However there is a difference in a site being inclusive when it comes to members and what subject matter is covered on the site. For example, if I decide to post on the NBA playoffs on different threads than I am sort of off topic. And if Riese, in an article on the upcoming same sex marriage decision by the US Supreme Court, decides to quote my comments about the NBA playoffs than I would expect it would be questioned why I am posting about the NBA playoffs and why Riese is indulging me.

            This is a site about girl-on-girl culture or at least it has been for the most part. I don’t talk about my ex-boyfriend or my sex with him on here. Have I discussed that relationship on other sites? Yes. But for me to feel that on a “girl-on-girl culture” site it is the place for me to discuss that part of my life seems arrogant, as if what I want to discuss about my life supersedes the site. While the site is friendly to all queer women, that does not mean the site is still not about “girl-on-girl culture”. Just because a woman identifies as bisexual does not mean the site should indulge their desire to talk about sex with men. Yet for awhile now, many people seem to be confusing inclusivity with the subject matter.

            So I want just want to know from Riese what exactly is this site because it is no longer feeling like a “girl-on-girl culture” site to me.

        • Pretty sure I just rolled my eyes so hard, that they may never return to their original position.

          Regardless if one thinks # 10’s post is well written or self-indulgent or both does not matter.

          Yes, please do keep digging that knife in.

          Wow. WOW. Really?

          • Yes really. Because I want to make it clear that my concern is not with how # 10’s post was written. Personally I found it very moving. But ultimately that is not what this debate is about and I didn’t want my questioning of the what the site’s intent is to be misconstrued with a criticism of how the writing in the post was or a criticism of # 10 in any way. It seems you still managed to go there.

            I think one of your prior posts points to the problem here.

            “If AS is truly a safe space for queer women – and I think it is, recognising my privilege as a cis lesbian (in this particular space) – then all kinds of sex should be able to be talked about. I think AS generally does a pretty good job of this, and it’s something I really like and respect about the site/community.”

            This is the problem. The site says “girl-on-girl culture”. It does not say “queer girl culture”. If it said “queer girl culture” it would be different. Then women discussing sex with men would fit. Meanwhile I would go look for a different site because, while I am bisexual, there are places where it is nice to discuss specifically being with a woman and “girl-on-girl culture”. Is this going to remain one of those sites or not? That is what I am posing to Riese.

    • Thank you #10 for sharing your thoughts and experiences.
      I’d like to explain why the inclusion of that response made me feel uncomfortable and why I engaged in the debate. Like I pointed out in earlier comment, in part it’s because I’m afraid it would give straight people that would read it damaging ideas. But that’s not all. What triggered me was seeing lesbian identified women in comments saying it reflects their feelings.

      I’m „corrective” rape survivor. That I, in loose translation, just need to be f***ed good to start liking men was something I’ve heard when that happened. Whenever I see such women, claiming lesbian label and ‘explaining’ how hot and super fulfilling sex with a man is, my stomach aches and I cry from anger because I feel that all the men like that monster are reassured in their thinking and have a good laugh seeing that it’s true that lesbians just need a good d***.

      This is what I shared before on another occasion on this site, under recap of one episode of MTV show Faking It, where character that was exploring her sexuality, who outside of the show was said to be lesbian by the cast and promised that they wouldn’t take away this representation from us, was suddenly showed to be strongly sexually attracted to men even though she „experimented” before with a man just to feel nothing (and that sudden „turn” happened not long after sleeping – for yet another reasons – with another male character who wanted to „conquer” a lesbian). While Riese in her article pointed out that women who are only into women are increasingly erased from the media, which seems to send a message that „women are never enough”, that event was literally applauded by many lesbian identified women in comments section, claiming falsely that „it never happens” (in reality, just last year there were at least 7 instances of that trope with characters that were unequovically named as lesbians) and only caring that it validates their identity of lesbians who desire men sexually. One of those women even brought some study which suggested that more bisexual women than lesbians are rape survivors, which judging from context of discussion was apparently mentioned only to undermine my experiences.

      It may be so that I care too much what other people would think, but at the same time I’m convinced that visibility does matter. It’s not only about those monsters (though apparently even simple message „don’t rape” does have an effect on men, or at least so I’ve heard), but society in general, and ourselves, it affects people’s views which in turn affects how they treat us. And that has an impact on our well-being as well as our mental health.

      Whenever we, women who are only attracted to women, say something here, we are shamed, belittled and silenced. Recently I engaged in another discussion on this site, where I asked some bisexual women who wanted to reclaim the word „dyke” just to make sure that no one would assume it means they’re lesbians, since that word, as all dictionaries show, is considered by the „mainstream” to be synonym of lesbian. In return I was name-called, accused of biphobia, of „identity policing”, told that it’s not their concern if someone would think they’re lesbians and to put such responsibility on them is, again, biphobic. My question how they want to reclaim that label for bisexuals if they are just going to let people think they’re lesbians who are into men remained unanswered. And of course, their comments received lots of likes from site’s members.

      I know that I’m ranting now more about commenters in general than this article itself, and indeed I think I wouldn’t bother to write anything if I didn’t see those posts. That response on itself made me feel uncomfortable mainly just because I cannot free myself from thinking in category of „how homophobe and misogynist would read it”, and like you pointed out, they would read it as a „proof” that queer female sexuality still revolves around their d*cks. But that’s my problem, and if bisexual women are comfortable with that response, good for them. I only wish it would be stressed more that it’s not about lesbians, which is impossible when lesbian identified commenters right below the article express their sexual desire for men, and their words are supported by majority of members of this site. I really think that a bigger discussion about lesbian erasure – understood as erasure of women who are only attracted to women, whose sexuality is not fluid etc. – is needed, since right now it’s extremely one-sided.

  19. Jesus imagine what life would be like if queer white women cared about literally anything as much as they do about fanning the flames of this meaningless “feud” between lesbians and bisexual women.

  20. #10 should have not been included. We all understand not all women who have sex with women have sex with women exclusively, and only ever having sex with men in the past doesn’t make anyone less of a lesbian or less bisexual.

    I understand plenty of women who took this survey must have shared about their sexual experiences with men, but why feel the need to include them here? Why is there an obligation to talk about anything sexual involving men at all here? Autostraddle’s unique focus is girl-on-girl culture. Echoing the comments above, go to literally any other sex-positive feminist community site to talk about sex with men. Focus is not exclusion. Here is not the place.

    That being said, the rest of the list was hilarious.

    • Ariel, I agree with you that focus is not exclusion. Do you have any opinion on whether this site should also avoid talking about between sex between women and transgendered-men? (If that is the commonly accepted term.) I personally have no strong feelings on the matter one way of the other, but I imagine other might.

        • I am thankful to be enlightened and remember to tell anyone else if those subjects ever come up again. My apologies. I have heard both transexual and transgendered toss around without any clear memory of what either term means. Initially I was going to go with the former, but fear THAT term was inappropriate.

          Again thank you Anna and Brianna.

    • I’ve been thinking about this all weekend (I really need to get a hobby!) and I’m still in two minds! I’ve read the whole debate up-thread, and as a bisexual woman who’s madly in love with another woman, I think that if THAT response hadn’t been included it wouldn’t have been bi-erasure. I respect and admire Riese so much, I totally *get* her reasons for including that response! I reckon that response really was from a queer woman; so maybe we shouldn’t take the responses from this survey as a “how to be a lesbian” but more “shit queer woman say”? I don’t get it though, (I’m kicking myself for not taking part in the survey) but if I had partaked (partaken?), the LAST thing I’d have wanted to mention would be sex with men. Buuut, on the other hand, Autostraddle is FULL of wonderful advice, stories, and just awesome things that appeal to the very strong lesbian side of this bi-chick. So I can’t complain.
      Tl:dr – hey I’m bi and I didn’t *love* THAT response, but live and let live – Autostraddle rules!

  21. RE: “The Situation:”

    When I was a closeted, 21 year old impressionable baby queer, fresh out of my first LTR (with a guy), I found my first LGBTQ+ communities online, on sites like AfterEllen (and, later, AS). I was so scared of the future, but I found solace online.

    And it was amazing to connect with queer people and culture. It gave me hope that I too might someday find more bravery, live more honestly, perhaps be happy.

    But the infighting was apparent back then, too. All of this fear and anger that we turned towards each other, instead of back out at the true homophobes and assholes. Instead of being each other’s allies, we were each other’s worst enemies. And that was my whole queer community, so I REALLY internalized that. It was a huge factor in the fact that I didn’t come out or date a woman for nine more years. Nine. Years. I was so scared of the lesbians whom, it seemed, would hate me because I hadn’t figured out my shit before I dated some guys. I was so scared of the community, because I thought that real life would be like what was reflected online.

    Long story short: I grew up, I came out, and I found a community in the real world. And I just want to tell everyone who is still isolated or closeted and comes to AS for a breath of future and hope: NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON I HAVE MET IN REAL LIFE acted like what the angriest of what we are reading in the comments section here. Almost everyone was welcoming. Almost no one cared that I had dated men. When I told people who I was, they listened earnestly and believed me. They welcomed me with open arms.

    Things can get so black and white online, and people can get so angry. I just want to let that one person out there who needs to know: out there in the real world, there is room for you, and all of your complexities, ambiguities, and the gorgeous bits of you that don’t fit in a “bisexual” or “lesbian” check box. There is room for all of us, truly. I hope you can keep that in mind as you read.

    • The people attempting to make it black and white are people such as yourself who conflate the belief of others that this should not be a site where women talk about how awesome sex with a man is with a lack of inclusivity. This site is about girl on girl culture. You talk above about that being a jumping off point. No it is a site about girl on girl culture. It is not a site about boy on girl or girl on boy culture. I am a fan of soccer and volleyball. When I go to a soccer forum, I don’t decide that is the appropriate forum to talk about how volleyball is fantastic. It is common sense. I may talk about my sex life with my ex-boyfriend but I don’t do so here. It is common respect.

      At this point, if there is not some semblance of respect, this site might as well be Penthouse forum. This need for people to go to the few girl on girl culture sites and shove it down people’s throats with their stories of having sex with men is tiresome. Even more tiresome is then playing a victim as if being asked to chill about the wonders of a penis on a girl on girl culture site means one is being discriminated against. Give me a break.

      • Oh lordy. No one was talking about “the wonders of a penis.” I’m not even a fan of penises, myself, but that’s beside the point. The point I am trying to make here, boys and girls, is that the people I have met in the real world are much more inclusive and less angry then what I’ve seen here in the past week, so take heart! And at that, I think it’s time I stopped looking to these forums for community. Too stressful. See you all in the real world! ❤

    • So… “Lesbians are mean online,” is that what the point of your comment is? Because I’ll tell you, that’s precisely what the point of your comment seems to be.

      It’s amazing how many comments like yours there are on this post, when there hasn’t been a single instance of any lesbian commenter hating anyone for dating or having sex with men. There haven’t been any comments criticizing bi/pan women at all; there have been comments focused on WHAT A SELF-IDENTIFIED GIRL-ON-GIRL SITE POSTS, no bisexuals or pansexuals, not the sexual histories of others. But hey, why thoughtfully engage when you can make emotional appeals based on misrepresentations of what the people you disagree with are saying?

  22. I am really very tired of all of this nonsense. I’m Bi-sexual. You think there are ‘places’ for me to be openly bi-sexual? Oh ok, well why don’t you just go walk your queer ass back into the closet? Because that’s what you just told me to do, you flaming hypocrite! There is no where safe for me to be bi-sexual. If I do it in the mainstream I am surrounded by horny men who think it means I’m easy. If I do it here I’m surrounded by militant lesbians who insist I have no right to share my insight. Bugger off!

  23. #19. So much.

    Also, for some reason when I read ‘harness out of bike parts’ all that came to mind was chains and gears and handlebars and it sounds incredibly painful to all involved ahaha

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