How the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival’s Topless Womyn Changed My Lesbian Life Forever

Posted byguest, riese and stef

on August 30, 2009

36 responses to “How the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival’s Topless Womyn Changed My Lesbian Life Forever”

1. 

   Vikki

   August 30, 2009 at 10:01 pm Permalink Reply

   I went to the festival three times in the 1990′s and then I’d had my fill. It really is something to behold.

   0
   1. 

      riese(member)

      August 30, 2009 at 10:34 pm Permalink Reply

      I wish I had been you in the 90s instead of me.

      0
2. 

   cycnet

   August 30, 2009 at 10:17 pm Permalink Reply

   I have to say – saying the fest is not transphobic then denying trans people their gender really does strike me as completely ass backwards.

   1
   1. 

      riese(member)

      August 31, 2009 at 11:50 am Permalink Reply

      Just being devil’s advocate here — I wasn’t at the festival and never have been, so all I know is what I’ve read about it — but why does the festival have an obligation to be 100% trans-inclusive? It’s a private event for “womyn-born-womyn,” and aren’t there other spaces that exclude or hurt transpeople in more damaging ways which are more worthy of our time & protest? Like why protest the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival when the more pertinent battles are with like, THE US GOVERNMENT and the court system and the medical system?
      -
      If someone is trans and ‘decides’ to alter their physical self to match their mental/emotional self, isn’t part of that identity an awareness that just as some male-only spaces will now be open to them, some women-only spaces will no longer be?
      -
      Again — not claiming to be an expert on the situation by any means, but these are questions that I have about it for real. I like what Bitch said in the interview that Lindsay linked to as well.

      0
      1. 

         Valerie Keefe

         December 13, 2009 at 8:03 am Permalink Reply

         “It disappoints me when the feminists that I admire don’t get it. Like the musician Bitch, who recently defended Michigan’s entrance policy in an interview with Lesbian Life, saying “…it’s not trans people being marginalized. It’s people who were born as men. The festival is for people who suffered a girlhood.”

         To Bitch and others who agree with her, I ask you to imagine what it could be like to “suffer a girlhood” while also being forced to play the role of a little boy. While many of us suffered through the indignity of being a girl in a patriarchal world, those of us lucky enough to be born into bodies we’re comfortable with need to recognize our privilege, and check it at the door. Or at the gates of any music festival.”

         -Ariel Troster

         She says it better than I ever could.

         1
         1. 

            jenna wiggins

            December 22, 2010 at 4:31 am Permalink Reply

            Totally agree. What they dont realize is that there is a lot of division in trans spaces as well with many of us feeling like “true girls” and seeing many others as “men in trans spaces” whatever that means.

            But yes, the big issue is we are not born MEN we are born women with intersexed bodies… we were never men. and i think its that attitude which is most hurtful

            that isnt to say I havent known MEN who transition. the famous wrestler who liked lifting weights and grappling sweaty boys all day… but even THEY insist that was just “fitting in” but somehow I have a hard time swallowing it

            HOWEVER.. some of us… do truly live our whole lives as WOMEN and are discriminated against like you would not F-in believe. I was personally attacked by 100 on 1 gang fights all through my young teens.. and this was life threatening and serious fighting. Imaging being a 10 year old girl and having to fight 100 15 year old boys at once… daily

            dont u dare tell me I’m not a woman and I’ve never suffered

            1
         2. 

            Jenn(member)

            January 24, 2011 at 10:55 pm Permalink ReplyReport user

            Fucking thank you, seriously. UGH. A synonym for “Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival” is TRANSPHOBIA.

            1
3. 

   Bren

   August 31, 2009 at 10:32 am Permalink Reply

   I wonder why women at these festivals are often completely naked or topless, but never just bottomless.

   1
   1. 

      riese(member)

      August 31, 2009 at 4:08 pm Permalink Reply

      I know there is a serious need for Vadge Pride

      0
   2. 

      Vikki

      September 1, 2009 at 11:36 am Permalink Reply

      When i was there, there were naked women too.

      0
4. 

   Michela

   August 31, 2009 at 10:47 am Permalink Reply

   No mention of Camp Trans? The transphobia of Michfest still goes on….I would have liked to see more discussion of that on here. Did you consider interviewing any trans leaders or visiting Camp Trans?

   Also, minor point, it’s in Western Michigan, not Eastern Michigan.

   1
   1. 

      riese(member)

      August 31, 2009 at 11:13 am Permalink Reply

      Lindsay’s essay is just about her experience at the festival. It’s her first-person piece about how she felt there, though she does address the trans issue briefly and link out to an interview with Bitch. I feel like an article about Camp Trans and the transphobia at MichFest would be a whole different article or a much longer piece, deserving of more space, more reporting and more interviews.

      Lindsay’s article here doesn’t claim to be about anything more than her own first-person experience at MichFest. IMHO?

      0
5. 

   Lindsay

   August 31, 2009 at 6:04 pm Permalink Reply

   I just saw that the article was up, yay!

   There were just two things in the commments I wanted to comment on, Riese’s take is right, I tried to write from my own perspective. I stayed in the family camping with my cousins and therefore didn’t have any experience with Camp Trans, or the Over 40s Camping, or anywhere else – that’s why I didn’t write about it. If I go next year I think it would be fun to do some interviews too, but this year being my first I was too overwhelmed with everything else going on and it just didn’t happen.

   Speaking of vadge-pride, I did see two womyn dressed up in giant vagina costumes!

   0
6. 

   Elise

   September 1, 2009 at 2:49 am Permalink Reply

   “And it’s not trans people being marginalized. It’s people who were born as men.”

   So… it’s just half of trans people being marginalized. The half that actually identifies as women. Huh.

   I’m not trying to be snotty, I just genuinely don’t understand Bitch’s logic here. Why does she believe the meaningful criteria for admittance is “people who suffered a girlhood?” And more importantly, don’t most MTF’s think of themselves as having a girlhood? Just one that was denied and disparaged (and apparently continues to be so?) Aren’t we being inherently transphobic when we deny them that, and tell them, essentially, sorry, nope, you were totes a dirty boy, no matter what you thought you were, and you’ll never be enough of a woman to join us? And what is gained by excluding them? Do we seriously believe they’re deep cover covert men just waiting to sneak into women’s safe spaces?

   I feel like I’m being Snotty McSnotterson here, and I want to emphasize that I really did enjoy the article. But honestly, this whole discussion is throwing me for a loop, because the festival sounds so otherwise awesome and progressive and queer and it’s causing crazy cognitive dissonance to try and reconcile this transmisogyny with that.

   1
7. 

   Ali

   September 6, 2009 at 1:49 pm Permalink Reply

   I am a little upset about the trans policy as well. It’s not trans men being excluded, it’s trans women.

   Bitch’s quote assumes that trans women have never “suffered a girlhood”. But they have: they just had a boy’s identity at the time. From the people I talked to, in childhood many trans women were drawn to girly things but suffered a backlash because they were expected to be “boys”, ie something they weren’t really inside. These women have gone through more challenges to be women than I can even imagine. We should accept that and not get hung up on trans women being some kind of “threat” because they used to be men. I mean, wtf? They never really were, and they certainly weren’t happy with their old gender identity or they wouldn’t have taken the hugely courageous step to live their true lives and become one of North America’s most marginalized and attacked groups in the process.

   I think it sends totally the wrong message to allow trans men and not trans women. It should be the other way around in a woman-defined space.

   1
   1. 

      Trish

      May 5, 2010 at 2:52 pm Permalink Reply

      I’m not sure I’m up for a full on debate about the Fest Policy, though I do agree with it. I did want to comment on a small thing you said.

      “I think it sends totally the wrong message to allow trans men and not trans women.”

      1. Fest works on an honor system. There is no pantie checking. So, the word “allows” gives a flavor that is not present at fest.

      2. All the trans men I have had the occasion to have discussion with about “women’s space” say they would not attend, as they do not identify as ‘women born women’.

      I always think that debating an experience you have not had is like commenting on the taste of food without having eaten any. There is inherent flaw in judging your taste by others taste buds.

      And I won’t even go there on those who took a stand to comment on what someone should have included in her writings about her personal experience.

      0
8. 

   2cents

   October 15, 2009 at 8:51 pm Permalink Reply

   I suggest looking further into what the older generation of womyn have to say about the reasoning. I’m not of that generation, and I cannot claim to know the nuances. So, I will just share this in the hope that you will look into it further before passing judgement after one link.
   I do know there’s plenty out there for readers willing to hear the whys. All of this has been thought out ad-infinitum long before any of us were even thought of. Many arguments are worth attention, even if you later decide you don’t agree with them. This is not the kind of topic that can be addressed in a 5 minute blog reply.

   For example, one interesting point involves a consideration of the inherent nature of living in a patriarchy. Male children are considered privileged in a patriarchal society. Even males who later transition were raised with this baggage. It is difficult to abandon once ingrained into a person, and that does change the dynamic of any interaction.

   0
9. 

   Rebecca

   December 10, 2009 at 1:38 pm Permalink Reply

   Well you have me convinced. Been wanting to go for awhile and this is more than reason enough to get me planning. Out of curiousity where in Canada did you travel from? Southern Ont is where i’m at, would be cool to carpool or something. Thanks again!

   0
10. 

    NicoleSays

    December 29, 2009 at 1:47 pm Permalink Reply

    While I understand the prohibition against women born as men who choose to change later in life, what about women born with male chromosomes and go through a regular girlhood but are not genetically female. I’m talking about women with conditions like Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, who are XY, but since their cells don’t respond to testosterone, they develop morphologically and psychologically as girls; the estrogen that their bodies put out is able to feminize them naturally just like XX females. But, since they don’t have a uterus, they don’t menstruate (that’s usually how they find out that they are AIS), and, of course, can’t have babies. These women didn’t choose to be females; they were born that way, and go through a girlhood just like other XX womyn.

    That said, to those trans males to females that don’t like MWMF’s transphobic policies, just start your own festival. The same is true for men. If womyn can have their own festival, then so can transfolks and so can XY males. Exclusivity is not a monopoly held by womyn.

    0
    1. 

       Trish

       May 5, 2010 at 2:59 pm Permalink Reply

       I wondered when I would get to some extreme end gender question.

       Have you ever prepared a dinner for friends?

       You invite 10 people and you then try to choose a menu to suit everyone. It’s hard.

       Try inviting 50 people and then covering their food issues.

       Now try 1000 or 2000.

       Individuals who personally identify as women, but believe that their chromosomes might be reason for them to not be welcomed, should get in touch with fest and have a conversation. They can decide after having it if they feel fest is a good match for them.

       It’s the same as if I had some food issue and was attending the very large dinner party and needed to know if there were going to be enough foods I could eat to satisfy me. I contact the hostess.

       Trish

       0
11. 

    Lesboseparatiste

    August 7, 2010 at 5:34 pm Permalink Reply

    It is even not only the question to have lived a girlhood or not, as most lesbians tried not to conform to female stereotype (by freedom, taste and for sexual survival).
    Only radical lesbians pretend to be lesbians for political reasons first if not only reason and speak a lot about gender.
    I will tell you something true : nature exists, that you try to remove or add any culture on top, it will still exist. Also lesbians exist long before any questionning about gender role or women oppression, and they love women AND they do not like men! It is a definition that fits most lesbians.
    Also this festival was created by lesbians for lesbians and women (90 % lesbians actually) to enjoy and create *women loving women*’s culture and find freedom there.
    Just tell me how a trans man (FTM) who would take testosterone, grow a bearb (when a free woman or a lesbian will just let her hair grow, there is a big difference..), try to have a male voice (not a lesbian voice), try to have a male brain, try to enter any stupid privileges of men, try to fuck women and invade them sexually with a penis if he/she had one, so how could we lesbians feel that this woman is still a woman or a lesbian ? Maybe, and maybe not, at the beginning of her transformation but surely not after.
    And do I have to repeat ?
    Lesbians, separatist lesbians do not like men for both political and *natural* epidermic motivations as well.
    Same problem with a trans woman (MTF), if you really think she can pass for a female or worse a lesbian (!!), and would not pass for a male anyway, then ok, include, include!
    But don’t fool us, it is impossible, I don’t know one single lesbian, who would not be bisexual, and who would have a MTF partner.
    For lesbians, a woman :
    - is not a female stereotype.
    - is not a female-looking person who still can’t refrain to act like a man and impose her presence in front of lesbians and a lot of what we always used to recognize and distrust in males (males our competitors and our ennemies like for all the female class).
    - can be very masculine and diverse but has no remains of a male body, if it is not in the shape then it is in the flesh, smell, etc.. or no male brain that lesbians could still guess and sense as being foreign to females but apparented to males.
    - does not have an artificial – deprived of lesbian/women feelings – hole between the legs but has a real clitoris and a real vagina.
    In fact the problem with trans inclusion outside of any political discussion is that lesbians are used to recognize and love and make love with masculine lesbians (a lesbian always has something masculine, but not male), they are used to detect the female in them, so there is unfortunately no way that a MTF could pass for a woman or a lesbian, maybe at 50 meters, but not in a bed or even not at some meters away..

    Sorry to disappoint trans activists but I had to say it.

    Moreover, trans activists targeting the only event which is for lesbians-(and women born women)only when we know all the difficulties that lesbians are facing in their lives, most being very poor, rejected and isolated from their pairs, and how rare are separatist lesbians amongst a lesbian population, I find it just disgusting and only another assault of queer/liberal/pro-sex/financed by sex-trade industry activists.

    Moreover, transgender people, who can be all and everything, and especially just post-mod coolest macho men willing to enter lesbian space, as usual, also known in the past as just *lesbian men* as they called themselves, or we could even say just any violent men fantasizing about lesbians and willing to be always included by any possible females he could dream to parasite, is another side of the same trans inclusion anything.

    Why not open Michfest to men and straight people then, or just say give them the key and commit suicide ?

    Men, trans-things, will never ever create lesbian culture and women love. MTF are only in love of a vision they have on what is a female to their mind, and it is their absolute right to change sex, as it is the right of transgenders to want to be called this name or this other name and have no coercition linked to their sex at birth.. Ok but be realistic, the heteropatriarchal culture is more oppressive than ever, than when it was in the 70′s, 80′s when mass feminism existed and bigger separatist movements/communities/events existed, so people who are now at absolute delight with this society because they are for mixity (MTF separatist lesbians do not exist, sorry..) and are sticking to most sexual stereotypes although they pretend the opposite (they think a man not behaving like a macho is not a man or that a woman not looking like a barbie doll is already a transgender), that these so-called transgender people invade other spaces, and deal with their trans-ness together.
    That MTF began to be recognized as such by straight women and straight men before to want to have a recognition that cannot happen from separatist lesbians and from most lesbians. Or alternatively show me these lesbians having intimate relationships with trans women then, this before that trans even try to claim to be lesbians.
    Ok they are women and lesbians, but in their definition and OUTSIDE OF OUR SPACES.
    We do not choose our sex at birth, we can choose to change it later but this choice when the end result is far from perfect cannot be imposed on others in name of any prohibited violence against, any racism, any political uncorrectness.
    If we called racism, this indeed phobia (phobia means do not like, hate), menphobia and transphobia that lesbians feel in front of men and transwomen or transmen, then lesbians would sleep with men if male or female body would not matter more than a skin color or a fat/slimness, but it matters, it matters, so maybe not so much intellectually and we could discuss it for long, but please in reality, it matters. Only bisexuals would not mind.
    Lesbians don’t feel safe or free with men, they love women, they dislike or hate men (if they liked or ignored them, men would be in their beds, especially with all the sexual pressure and harassment put on any woman) and in spite of that, they are obliged to see men and straight couples around and around and hold them all the time outside of Michfest, men and the society they created, and men are their ennemies, really, so yes they can hate men, even those who were never interested in feminism can hate men, and you know what, it is their right, so former men or men in head are not welcome.
    And menphobia, transphobia does not kill any person, which is not the same with lesbophobia or misogyny, keep that in mind too. Lesbians do not owe anything to men or to trans!

    And it is so obvious.. But not for men and men defenders apparently.

    Normal, women and especially lesbian voices are never heard.

    0
    1. 

       Cassandra(member)

       August 8, 2010 at 5:14 am Permalink ReplyReport user

       What? As a “normal” woman (whatever that means) and a lesbian, you need to take your fucked-up transphobic fuckery and fuck off. Don’t you dare act like you’re speaking for me.

       Also: “transphobia does not kill any person,”

       Liar. The murder rate for trans people in the US is 1 in 12. Words and attitudes like yours contribute to a culture that KILLS these people. To see it coming from the gay community of all places is pretty horrifying.

       1
       1. 

          Heather

          December 2, 2010 at 12:14 am Permalink Reply

          I don’t know you but I think you’re amazing. She doesn’t speak for me, either.

          1
    2. 

       wendy wiket

       December 22, 2010 at 4:38 am Permalink Reply

       This is about the stupidest thing I’ve ever read

       1) I fool lesbians every day. They, like everyone, dont have a clue. And I mean naked or clothed

       2) Post op you do not have “a hole” you have a fully correct vagina, clitoris, labia, labia minora, frenulum. All of it. So piss off you ignorant fuck

       1
    3. 

       Ikillstupidhatefullesbians

       December 22, 2010 at 4:44 am Permalink Reply

       who the fuck are you calling a trans-thing you pathetic ignorant fuck

       0
    4. 

       emma

       January 24, 2011 at 10:32 pm Permalink Reply

       reading all those paragraph-long sentences completely devoid of punctuation and peppered with rambling, delusional sentiments of faux facts and extremism was not unlike reading the label on a bottle of dr. bronner’s.

       have fun with all that man-hating and whatnot! if you get a break from the separatist nihilism, try to brush up on your verb conjugation.

       0
12. 

    Zoe Brain

    August 8, 2010 at 3:09 am Permalink Reply

    “Transphobia does not kill any person…”

    Look up the Transgender Day of Remembrance, for the hundreds of women and men killed every year purely from Transphobia and enforcing the boundary between male and female.

    This week, it included a 17 month old child assigned male who was beaten to death for acting too “girlie”.

    From the FBI statistics, an average of 5 GLB people have been killed every year because of their sexual orientation. This includes lesbians killed for being who they are.

    20 Trans women and 5 Trans men are killed over the same period, just for being who they are too.

    1
13. 

    Monique Louicellier

    August 8, 2010 at 12:12 pm Permalink Reply

    Wait a moment, does transphobia from lesbians equals transphobia from men’s culture and from men and men who kills transpeople ??? No way !
    Non-inclusion and preservation of people willing to be men or of people that we still recognize as men, is not the same transphobia then ?
    Another thing : does mandatory inclusion of men kill women ?
    Answer is yes.
    Next I forgot to stress out something in this report from Autostraddle, how come she is speaking about dildos and anal sex, hoe come focusing once more on objectification of women, sexualization of.. quite sensitive and possibly painful area, seving once again male interests.
    What will come next ?
    Focusing on how feet massages can be sex and have to overwhelm everything because sex has toi drive the world, even the most awful ways to have sex (for women), quite frankly I would prefer this option of feet massages to the others, thank you.
    Why not speaking about – and stay focuse on . women’s culture instead ?

    0
    1. 

       DiscoSpider

       January 25, 2011 at 2:05 am Permalink Reply

       sidestepping the transphobia to focus on another utterly ridiculous thing:
       right, all women hate penetration, and all penetration by male parts for male pleasure, it can’t possibly be from a woman’s fingers or toys, for female pleasure can it? you are just providing another great example of how incredibly hateful and close-minded separatists tend to be.

       1
14. 

    Monique Louicellier

    August 8, 2010 at 12:13 pm Permalink Reply

    preservation from… you had to read, of course

    0
    1. 

       emma

       January 24, 2011 at 10:08 pm Permalink Reply

       MON DIEU, va te faire foutre! t’es une idiote et tes idées sont pathetiquement démodées.

       et aussi, ton anglais CRAINT du BOUDIN. ferme ta putain de gueule.

       1
15. 

    r

    May 23, 2011 at 9:49 pm Permalink Reply

    I don’t understand how any female identified people are unwelcome at a womyn’s festival. If you are a women you should be welcome (mtfs inculded.)

    By this reasoning I could understand denying access to ftm’s, they don’t identify as women. However, trans men are directly linked to the lesbian community. Many once considered themselves lesbians, and have experienced society boxing them in as such in the past. Although ftm’s are not women i think it could be generally concluded that they are allies, often feminists, and should also be welcome.

    This stated, I don’t believe boycotting the festival is the answer. Often the best way to make change is from inside of an organization. If people show up expressing their disapproval of trans exclusive policies, the likelihood of a more inclusive future will increase.

    1
16. 

    mstrish

    May 24, 2011 at 5:34 pm Permalink Reply

    “I don’t understand how any female identified people are unwelcome at a womyn’s festival. ”

    I wanted to address this comment.. And I will from my personal understanding of the policy.

    The intended audience via their policy is “women born women” fest believes and I personally do as well that the life experience of WBW is unique.

    When I explain this is my friends I explain it like this. I am bi racial my father is black my mother is white. I do attended all black lesbian events. I have not been turned away even though I am technically half black.

    However, if the promoter came to me and said that the targeted audience was black lesbians raised by two black parents, I would not attend. As my life experience raised by a white mother and a black father is different than those raised by two black parents.

    The life experience of a WBW is different, than trans women and others who though not WBW, identify as women.

    Beyond that fest is held on privately owned land, hosted by the land owner, so I dont get whats to debate. If I have a party at my home, I invite whom I choose. I can charge cover at the door or whatever. It’s just that simple. Those I invite can attend or not.

    Trish

    0
    1. 

       Shaed(member)

       January 23, 2012 at 1:21 pm Permalink ReplyReport user

       But if I get an invite to a pivate party and it says “white women only – for discussing the unique experiences of white women, who we will now simply refer to as women”, I can decide that the private party that it is perfectly legal for people to have is racist. I can tell them it is racist. I can encourage my friends not to go to the racist party, or if they do go, to openly question the racist nature of the party’s intention.

       This is the same as the MichFest policy, only replacing one relatively privileged group of women (white women) with another relatively privileged group of women (cis women).

       Just because a thing is legal does not mean we have to pretend it is acceptable.

       0
17. 

    mstrish

    May 24, 2011 at 5:47 pm Permalink Reply

    By the way, attending fest and supporting the policy does not make one anti trans. I go there, just as I go anyplace I go… because that place meets the need I desire of it.

    I always find it interesting when people say that everyone person has a right to be in every place. There a male only spaces, there are over 65 only spaces, military only spaces, student only, employee only and a list of others…

    However, anyone who has taken any amount of womens history learning knows that the concept of “I have a right to everything” is very male.

    Trish

    0
    1. 

       Shaed(member)

       January 23, 2012 at 1:23 pm Permalink ReplyReport user

       Anyone who has studied any amount of transphobic radfem rhetoric knows that when a trans woman asserts herself it is described as “male,” but when a transphobic radfem asserts herself it is described as “empowered.”

       0

Leave a Reply

Click here to cancel reply.