To quote Sufjan Stevens, “I love kissing. If I could kiss all day, I would. I can’t stop thinking about kissing. I like kissing more than sex because there’s no end to it. You can kiss forever. You can kiss yourself into oblivion.” Here at Autostraddle, we respect the sex scene. We really, really do. But there’s just something about an on-screen make out. We’ve celebrated making out IRL, but now it’s time to celebrate the best lesbian movie make outs of all time.
Some of these scenes are hot, some of these scenes are sweet, and some of these scenes manage to achieve both. There are classic queer kisses, new favorites, and even some scenes I watched by googling “girls kissing” in the early days of YouTube long before I’d seen the films themselves.
Unlike our best lesbian movies of all time list which was created through an intricate process of ballots and voting, this list is entirely my opinion. It’s unlikely I forgot your fave, but you certainly can share what would be on your list. I’d love an excuse to revisit some scenes and do some more research.
Let’s begin with a beginning. While most on-screen make outs rely heavily on the build up, Halina Reijn’s comic thriller drops us in media res to tongues gliding against each other. It’s rare outside of a sex scene to get on-screen kissing this eager and realistic and hot. It’s a brief moment of sensuality and intimacy, a snapshot of what exists outside of the toxic nightmare of distrust these characters are about to enter.
19. Anaïs Demoustier and Valeria Bruni Tedeschi in Anaïs in Love
While this list does not include kissing during sex, it does include kissing that leads to sex. This one is for the age gap girls and anyone who doesn’t care about getting sand in crevices. Throughout the film, we’ve watched Anaïs dominate the men in her life, but faced with her crush — who also happens to be the wife of the man she’s having an affair with — she’s timid. Luckily, this older woman grabs her face with a sandy hand and initiates, allowing Anaïs to sink into the moment.
18. Sheila Munyiva and Samantha Mugatsia in Rafiki
Some of the make outs on this list are more about the circumstances than the kisses themselves. This moment in Rafiki with its two leads’ faces painted in neon is heavy with the possibility of a kiss, faces inching closer and closer. Finally, they get up and go somewhere more private, the tension still remaining. The kiss itself is brief but it holds the entirety of the moments before. That it then cuts to the characters hugging and laughing goes to show young love at its best is as much about finding a best friend as it is finding sexual awakening.
I’ve only had about a dozen cigarettes in my life and I’d say ten of them were because I wanted to kiss someone. Sorry, but if a hot woman asks if you want to step outside for a smoke it’s very hard to say no even if you’re not a smoker! I didn’t love the movie Cuckoo, but I did love the representation of a hot woman asking if you smoke followed by an excellent make out against a tree cigarettes in hand.
This is for anyone who loves PDA! From their first encounter, pop star Mimi and punk singer Billie have a combative relationship. But their sexual chemistry is as electric as their conflicts! After showing them fight in a music studio, filmmaker Alexis Langlois cuts to them devouring each other in a club. When one of their friends calls them out saying they might as well be fisting, this doesn’t phase them. Instead it inspires them to lie on the table, exchange more spit, and come up with the film’s best song, “Fisted to the Heart.”
15. Rachel McAdams and Rachel Weisz in Disobedience
Alas, the spit scene can’t be included, because it happens during sex and that’s the rule of this list. BUT before that incredible sex scene is an incredible make out. I love this moment because of the slow build, the plausible deniability that the women are embracing as friends until the line is crossed further and further. I also love this moment because both women are still dressed in full winter wear. The winter kiss is underrated! There’s something about all the layers of clothes between you and the hunger to get them off.
This list would not be complete without a sleepover first kiss. The tension of the night out with friends, the soft glow of the bedroom’s darkness, the giggling, the touching, the anxiety, the panic, the disbelief, the trust. This is a coming-of-age story, not a love story, but writer/director Dee Rees understands the importance of this moment being one of overwhelming joy. Alike isn’t just connecting with her crush, she’s connecting with herself.
13. Heather Graham and Bridget Moynahan in Gray Matters
Once again, reminding the folks at home that this list is a solo effort, so you cannot judge my picks. I will accept that Gray Matters is not a good movie, but this two minute clip is why I learned how to delete YouTube history from my family computer. Heather Graham drunkenly making out with her brother’s fiancée!!! Very overwhelming to me as a closeted teen!!!
Despite having one of the most iconic lesbian kisses in movie history, Desert Hearts does not make this list. It’s not a make out! Yes, it’s raining and intense, but it’s too brief! However, Cameron Post and Coley Taylor kissing during Desert Hearts does make it. Whether a closeted teen or a seasoned queer, sometimes showing your friend a movie is a way to make a move. My favorite part of this moment isn’t even the kiss itself. It’s when Coley kicks Cameron and then just lets her foot stay there as they keep watching a model for what they’re about to do.
11. Sook-Yin Lee and Justin Vivian Bond in Shortbus
While a frequent anxiety of the sexually inexperienced is that they’ll do something wrong, I’ve found that someone being inexperienced but eager to experience can be really hot! I love this moment from Shortbus where the iconic Justin Vivian Bond fills the uniquely queer trans role of being both the Wise Gay Bestie and the First Lesbian Crush. Sofia is at her first sex party and unsure what she wants. There’s a real tenderness between her and Vivian indicative of the film as a whole. Yes, it has unsimulated sex, but it’s also really sweet!
There have been many movies with homoerotic teen girl friendships over the years ready-made for projection and fanfic. But Jennifer’s Body makes subtext text. Not only does it have its toxic besties kiss. It teases a kiss. Then has them keep kissing with a close up of their mouths. Then has them keep kissing lying on the bed. It’s as if writer Diablo Cody and director Karyn Kusama wanted to make sure no one could misread this moment as anything but the manifestation of true desire between the girls. In fact, it doesn’t stop because one of them loses interest — Needy is just concerned about the whole killing boys thing.
9. Isabél Zuaa and Marjorie Estiano in Good Manners
This one is for all the sniffers, lickers, and biters. This one is for anyone who wants their on-screen make outs to include someone pregnant. This one is for anyone who has a thing for werewolves. Tension has been building between the chaotic Ana and her hired nanny Clara. But after a night out to herself when she gets another woman’s number, Clara comes home to find Ana rummaging through the fridge. In a trance-like state, Ana inhales her scent, licks her mouth, hungrily kisses her, and then bites Clara’s lip. When Clara pulls away, she sees Ana’s eyes glowing orange. Is Clara scared or horny? Why not both?
In a film filled with power games, one of its most delicious is when Lady Hideko tells her handmaiden she’s anxious about marriage because she doesn’t even know how to kiss. Is this true? Or is it a move? Both? Either way it works. Handmaiden Sook-Hee sucks on a lollipop and then shares the sweetness between their lips. Pretty soon they’re making out with no sign of stopping. Educational!
7. Madeline Grey DeFreece and Rachel Sennott in Tahara
A very different “teach me to kiss” scene, this scene trades eroticism for the mortifying experience of being young. After enough goading, Carrie agrees to tell her cruel friend Hannah — who she is in love with, of course — whether or not Hannah is a good kisser. As their mouths meet, the 1:1 aspect ratio widens and the characters turn to clay. The camera spins around and around until the clay figures begin to meld into one another. This bold stylistic choice reveals the all-consuming unreality of adolescent longing.
6. Denise Richards and Neve Campbell in Wild Things
Another scene I watched over and over long before seeing the movie itself, this iconic pool fight turned make out is everything good about trashy 90s erotic thrillers. What does it do to a young person’s brain to watch one hot woman try to drown another hot woman before sucking her finger and then proceeding to make out topless? I’m not sure, but I turned out alright. (I have health insurance because I make lists of lesbian make outs after all.) The funny thing is that the broader context of this movie is even gayer than this scene led me to believe. No spoilers, but the end contextualizes this moment in a way that’s absolutely delicious.
5. Cécile de France and Izïa Higelin in Summertime
Finally, a film that combines sensual lesbian romance and feminist activism! I love the subversion of roles here. Even though Carole is older and has been the guide into this political sphere, it’s Delphine who instigates their sexual relationship. After a failed attempt late at night, they finally kiss — in an alleyway! in public! in the 70s! — after Carole insists she’s not a lesbian and Delphine reassures her that she isn’t either. Okay, ladies, whatever you say. That kissing looks pretty gay!
While this film is predominantly about Eunice’s relationship to her family, I really appreciate the richness of her scenes with hot stranger eventual girlfriend Joana. Their first meeting is incredible club make out representation. The music is loud, allowing all of the communication to take place silently. Lesbians are known in media for talking, not for cruising, and this scene is the rare sequence where without dialogue we see a queer woman spot someone she’s into, gulp down liquid courage, make her way toward the woman, dance with her, and, finally, kiss her.
3. Anne Celestino and Thaís Schier in Alice Júnior
I cannot explain to you the joy I felt when this movie about a trans teenager trying to get her first kiss turned gay. The whole movie she’s talking about boys and even crushing on her new friend’s boyfriend. But then during her going away party the new friend kisses her and everything changes. I love that this movie allows for both self-confidence and self-discovery. Alice knows with full confidence who she is — and, at the same time, there’s still more to learn. This is a sweet, wholesome moment that still allows its young characters to have a really good kiss. After decades of movies where the twist is a character is trans, what a delight to instead have a twist where a trans character is into girls.
“Only this time I’m going to stick my tongue in your mouth. And when I do that I want you to massage my tongue with yours.” The teaching-to-kiss scene that came with an instruction manual. Where to begin? The outfits? The string of spit? Sarah Michelle Gellar’s performance? This moment is ICONIC. In fact, it’s so iconic that we have already discussed it in detail.
1. Guinevere Turner and Cheryl Dunye in The Watermelon Woman
The point of this list was to highlight make outs rather than sex scenes. So how can I top this list with a make out that only lasts a few moments before it leads into a sex scene? Well, because nothing else deserves this spot, that’s why.
After their video store encounter, Diana has invited Cheryl over to her new place offering her wine, dinner, and friendly conversation. This sequence in particular begins with a clip from one of Dunye’s recreations of 1930s “race films” — Cheryl is talking excitedly about star Fae Richards and Diana looks bored. But then their eyes lock and Diana smirks. As Cheryl smokes and the two women talk about their mutual attraction, the film walks such a smart line between sexy and painful. Some moments are erotic and cringe! We get why Cheryl is drawn to Diana without the film hiding the limits of their relationship. When Diana reaches into Cheryl’s shirt pocket or when she flicks her tongue against her mouth or the way she holds both cigarettes in one hand, it’s enough to make you forget the rest. The casting of Guinevere Turner is another brilliant detail. Having co-written and starred in Go Fish two years prior, Turner is this icon of white lesbian culture seducing and repelling Cheryl.
The final beat of the sequence before the sex scene has the two women fall out of frame. Dunye holds on the TV screen allowing the rest of the scene within the scene to play out. The character played by Fae slaps the other woman for saying God chose her to pass. Look, this list has mostly been an excuse to get horny, but the very best of lesbian cinema doesn’t choose between horniness and depth.
The best lesbian movie make outs are more than just a kiss.
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Drew is a Brooklyn-based writer, filmmaker, and theatremaker. She is a Senior Editor at Autostraddle with a focus in film and television, sex and dating, and politics. Her writing can also be found at Bright Wall/Dark Room, Cosmopolitan UK, Refinery29, Into, them, and Knock LA. She was a 2022 Outfest Screenwriting Lab Notable Writer and a 2023 Lambda Literary Screenwriting Fellow. She is currently working on a million film and TV projects mostly about queer trans women. Find her on Twitter and Instagram.
on-screen makeout I’d love to add to this list: Charlize Theron and Sofia Boutella bathroom makeup in Atomic Blonde
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SUCH a good pick!
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Love this list! Loads of my faves on here and a few to add to my watchlist. Off the top of my head, But I’m A Cheerleader would definitely be up there if I were to do my own list.
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Soooo good. I decided to consider that a sex scene instead of a make out scene but it’s a gray area for sure.
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No I agree, that’s a sex scene imo too! I was actually thinking of their first kiss at the gay bar.
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Ooooo that IS a good one!
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Incredible list!! Drew rules always. For me it’s the first kiss in The World to Come.
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I find it odd that some of these not only look incredibly awkward but fall under the category of experimentation. Cruel Intentions isn’t a lesbian film, two or three on this list would be purely just experimenting which is fine, but it’s misleading to include them in a LESBIAN list while completely over-looking Elena Undone, Walk with Me, Carol and numerous other actual lesbian films.
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Elena Undone was unbearable to watch, worthy makeout or not.
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Look, the World to Come is one of the worst lesbian films ever made BECAUSE it also includes the best kiss ever
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Definitely missing Chloe Sevigny & Michelle Williams in These Walls Could Talk 2 – it’s everything 🥵
It’s summertime, and we’re hot hot hot. I intend to eat as many creamsicles and creamsicle-adjacent treats as possible for the foreseeable future. The temperatures are sweltering, my body is sweating, and in the interest of cooling us all down mentally, I’ve prepared this nostalgic lesbian ice cream truck quiz for your enjoyment. Which lesbian ice cream truck treat ARE you! Time to find out!
Which Lesbian Ice Cream Truck Treat Are You?
Before you go! Autostraddle runs on the reader support of our AF+ Members. If this article meant something to you today — if it informed you or made you smile or feel seen, will you consider joining AF and supporting the people who make this queer media site possible?
Kayla Kumari Upadhyaya is the managing editor of Autostraddle and a lesbian writer of essays, fiction, and pop culture criticism living in Orlando. She is the former managing editor of TriQuarterly, and her short stories appear in McSweeney's Quarterly Concern, Joyland, Catapult, The Offing, The Rumpus, Cake Zine, and more. Some of her pop culture writing can be found at The A.V. Club, Vulture, The Cut, and others. When she is not writing, editing, or reading, she is probably playing tennis. You can follow her on Twitter or Instagram and learn more about her work on her website.
– Pick for queer arts & craft: Homemade soap
– Come on choco taco, or maybe a drumstick
– CHIPWICH!…..I’ll take it. Hopefully it’s a mint chipwich.
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Creamsicle!
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I love that I’m a choco taco!
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I just want to know which cast member of the ultimatum: queer love season 2 has been assigned to which treat
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I’m a Creamsicle. Tho’ I would like to protest the omission of hand-poured resin D&D dice at the craft fair. Every craft fair I’ve been to in the last few years has had at least one set. Usually with little delights like flowers or tiny charms that look like frogs or cats inside.
Before you go! Autostraddle runs on the reader support of our AF+ Members. If this article meant something to you today — if it informed you or made you smile or feel seen, will you consider joining AF and supporting the people who make this queer media site possible?
Kate Hawkins is a city-loving Californian currently residing in New Hampshire with her wife and toddler, where she's currently enjoying sports that require unwieldy pieces of equipment (kayaking! biking! cross country skiing!) and grilling lots of corn. She's stoked to be writing puzzles for Autostraddle and hopes you enjoy solving these gay puzzles!
My two closest friends (and future roommates) *Sophie and Madeline have been dating for a couple months. Before that, Sophie and I had a bit of a quiet situationship that I was going to make official, but timing didn’t work out, so she and Madeline ended up together instead. I love both of them dearly and they make a sweet couple, but whenever we go out, Sophie is all over me instead of Madeline. I can tell this is distressing for Madeline, especially since she knows that Sophie has had a thing for me in the past, but I don’t know how to address it without being a problem. Now when we spend time together, I have to keep my guard up because I’m afraid something will happen to ruin our friendships if I don’t, let alone managing my own feelings for Sophie. I don’t even know really what advice I’m asking for, but I’m sure I’m not the only one who’s been in this situation. I have other friends, but we all revolve around this one group and I desperately don’t want to cause a rift. Help!
*Names have been changed! Did we pick good ones? What would you have gone with? Sound off in the comments.
A
Valerie Anne: What in the L Word is going on here! You absolutely cannot move in with these people before having an open and honest conversation about what is going on. You have to set boundaries, be honest, and clear the air before becoming roommates. It’s going to be hard. And probably awkward as hell. But it’s going to be way more awkward and awful if things come to a head after you’re all on the same lease (or in the same dorm; both similarly hard to quickly escape from). You don’t have to mention you’re navigating your own feelings for Sophie if you’re worried that will upset both of them, but you have to tell Sophie if her being all over you makes you uncomfortable considering the situation. You can talk to them separately or together or both, and make it clear that you’re having this conversation because you DO like them as a couple and DO want to stay friends and be good roommates to each other, but if you don’t set boundaries and expectations now, things can only get worse.
Summer: Oh, this is something.
My immediate reaction is that Sophie is violating the breach of trust she has with Madeline. If Madeline is stressed about Sophie coming onto you, then Sophie’s behavior isn’t above board in their relationship. People are allowed to have complex feelings within a relationship, but actively seeking you out in that romantic capacity is a violation of Madeline’s trust. It’s also contrary to your attempts to keep things stable with Madeline and the friend group. I think Sophie’s behavior is at the point where it’s infringing on your personal boundaries and this bears a firm, but caring discussion with Sophie. Since you’re also friends with Madeline, I would hope that you also have a good enough relationship to discuss it in private with her should you feel the need to ‘get ahead’ of a developing story. Before things get messier.
Drew: My immediate question is whether you’ve talked explicitly to Sophie or Madeline or both about what you want and how you feel. Because that does seem like the first step if your priority is to reduce the drama and end anything flirtatious between you and Sophie. I wonder if the feelings you still have for Sophie are resulting in you keeping the situation in chaos because a part of you still wants it to be. No judgment! An understandable behavior! But if what you really want is to change this dynamic toward something less complicated then you need to express that explicitly.
Laneia: Hear me out, is there literally anywhere else you could live?
Nico: This might sound super stressful, but it might be the move to sit down and talk with them together, in person. I think it’s fair to give Sophie a heads up that you’re going to disclose your situationship history, but that heads up can be while you are all in the same place (one of your apartments). I recommend this move so that no one amongst the three of you can have sidebar conversations about this until after everyone is for sure on the same page. If Sophie wants to dispute what you have to say, she can do it in front of both you and Madeline, and not just to Madeline in private. I think this protects you from a potentially extremely awkward living situation, and also offers Madeline the fullest perspective, and finally asks Sophie to be accountable for her behavior to the both of you at the same time. That said, I am hoping that you consider living somewhere else, unless your motives are to get between Madeline and Sophie. Unless you all are top notch communicators and de-escalators, I don’t foresee this situation NOT becoming tense. Save the friendship and please save yourself!
Should you retroactively un-identify as a lesbian?
Q
I have identified as a lesbian since my mid-twenties, and had two serious relationships since then. It’s not like I really hated the men I dated before I came out but I just had much stronger connections with women, and usually dated people on the butch or masc end of things. I only had two serious relationships though with people who did identify as women at the time, and since our breakups, both of those exes have come out as trans men. Does this mean I’m not actually a lesbian after all? Would it be offensive for me to still identify as a lesbian?
A
Valerie: Do you still FEEL like a lesbian? Is that still a label that you identify with and feel is right for you? Because if so, that’s really the only requirement. You’re attracted to women, and you thought your last two partners were women when you dated them. I personally don’t think, just because it turns out you were wrong and they came out as men, it has to change your label if you don’t want it to. I actually have a friend who identifies as a lesbian and has a trans man ex and she actually delights in being able to talk about her ex who has a stereotypically male name and watch eyebrows go up. That said, if the lesbian label doesn’t FEEL right to you anymore, you can change it! There are no rules about it. But if it still does, I personally don’t think you have to change it because your exes transitioned.
Sa’iyda: I don’t think other people’s gender journey needs to affect how you see yourself in terms of language. Labels are self identifiers, so no one else can tell you how you feel about yourself. If you feel like a lesbian, then that’s what you are. I identified as bi, then queer when I no longer was attracted to men but wanted to respect my past relationship with a cis man. Now I call myself a lesbian because that’s what feels right to me at this stage of my life. Maybe I’ll reach a point in my life where I go back to queer, I don’t know! Nowadays, people are constantly shifting their self-identifiers based on what feels right. And there are a lot of women who say they’re lesbians but have dated or been in serious relationships with men in the past! It happens! But if your former partners transitioning makes you question or want to expand the way you view yourself, try on a new label. You can always go back to being a lesbian if that’s what makes you feel most comfortable.
Summer: It wouldn’t be ‘offensive’ for you to still ID as a lesbian just because the people you dated turned out to be trans after the fact. You are a lesbian as long as you feel strongly enough about your attraction to women to call yourself a lesbian. I think it can be that simple.
More to the point, when you were dating those partners who are now trans, I’m guessing they still characterized themselves as women, or women-like enough to fit into the lesbian attraction matrix. That means you were dating people whose genders aligned to your lesbian identity. They can change that later, but the past is already written. And while there is much capital-D Discourse about whether to characterize trans people as always their current and correct gender or to alter your terminology to reflect certain parts of their lives, that Discourse™ doesn’t have to impugn your right to personhood. As far as my (trans) ass is concerned, you’re a lesbian because you feel strongly about women in a particular way and that’s your call to make.
Drew: I’m going to go a step further and say you could continue to identify as a lesbian even if you were still dating one of your exes and that felt good for you and good for them. I fundamentally believe labels are fluid and about what feels right in describing yourself and your community. This feels related to the exhausting “can trans men be lesbians” discourse that’s been happening even more than usual in recent weeks. People want everything to be so categorized but that’s just not how it’s ever been and I don’t see the value in it becoming that way. To me, queerness should be about expansion and I’m grateful that lesbian identity and community includes people with a wide variety of gender experiences.
Nico: Here to say that labels are always evolving and fluid in their meanings — as Drew said, and lesbian community does in fact include people of a variety of gender identities. At the end of the day, a label is just a word, and I usually find someone’s label, followed by their own personal definition for how they relate to that label, to be what is actually required for me to understand where that person is coming from. I think that if you had a current partner who, while you were dating, did not identify as a woman, and who was uncomfortable with you using the label “lesbian,” then that is a conversation you can have between the two of you to find out what feels best. I am assuming that at the time, your partners did not express discomfort with your label, and since you are not a psychic who can tell if someone is a trans man before they tell you, I do not thing you did anything wrong there. When I was dating a lesbian and also came out as genderfluid, she asked how I felt about her continuing to identify as a lesbian. But here’s the thing: it was more than just about her attraction, it was also about the history and culture she was tapped into, about her deprioritization of cis men, and how she moved through community and in all of her relationships — not to mention the word being a part of her own personal history of coming out and navigating a hostile heteronormative world. The word “lesbian” was core to her identity for a lot of reasons, and I didn’t particularly feel like my gender identity was in any way challenging or delegitimizing that. That, though, was my own individual take, and someone else could feel completely differently — and that is also valid. However, you are not in a situation like this, so you don’t have to worry about that right now, and you are free to use whatever label feels right to you. You can also try other labels on, see if they feel better than “lesbian,” and you can change your mind LITERALLY at any time.
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In a crowded Lower East Side park with people playing volleyball behind her, Benedict Nguyễn began the performance. While I was there to talk to Benedict about her debut novel Hot Girls with Balls, I relished the opportunity to watch a run-through of her piece Defense. A true multi-hyphenate, Benedict would be performing this work with collaborator Sugar Vendil at her book launch blurring the lines between literature, dance, and sports.
Throughout the run-through, some kids kept hitting their ball onto our stage and each time Benedict hit it back as if they were part of the company. This is the kind of precision, creativity, and freedom Benedict brings to the page. Hot Girls with Balls is a novel that feels deliberate in its form while still vibrating with an energy of unpredictability.
Existing in a world parallel to our own, the novel follows Six and Green, two Asian American trans women competing at the highest level of men’s indoor volleyball. Influencers as well as athletes, the two women struggle to balance their sport with the pressures of their public and private lives.
I spoke to Benedict about why volleyball is the most aesthetic sport, writing Six and Green’s romance, and why the names of real tech companies are not in the book. While you’re reading, imagine the background sounds of people playing volleyball in a New York City park.
Drew: Tell me about the performance I just watched. What was the idea behind it and was it always planned to be in tandem with book events?
Benedict:Defense is a dance work. You could also call it a dance theatre work. It’s a duet between me and my friend and collaborator Sugar Vendil. It’s set on a sports court where we’re both players on a team getting ready for a game and we’re catching up and also having intense discussions about the nature of violence and also having some close call not-quite-arguments while doing functional exercises, pushups, and warming up with the ball. I’ve had the idea for a couple of years and we started rehearsing it in April. I was working on it as a solo and when I got back to New York last summer, I was hanging out with Sugar and I had the idea of turning it into a duet. Then I let that idea marinate for a few months before I accepted we can let the idea crisscross with the book launch.
Drew: When you say you accepted that they can crisscross… (laughs) What do you mean by that? That you wanted it as a solo piece but it felt like a valuable way to promote the book?
Benedict: Yeah I think the hesitancy is I had this idea and I wanted to just do the idea.
Drew: You didn’t want it to be marketing.
Benedict: Yeah but also the logistics of when and how this work would be shared. And this is a moment in which an audience we hope will appear.
Drew: So in a sense the book is marketing for the performance piece as well.
Benedict: (laughs)
Drew: But really neither is marketing. They’re just two creations of yours that are in conversation. Do you think they’re in conversation?
Benedict: Absolutely. Defense is not an adaptation of Hot Girls with Balls but in this period of public output I have a narrow enough set of ideas that I’m digesting.
Drew: More broadly, how do you feel like your work as a dancer and a performer affects your writing?
Benedict: I think a lot of my adult professional career has been trying to understand the relationship between them. Earlier when I was just starting to work with choreographers, I had a challenge of all of a sudden having to learn a lot of new material very quickly which hadn’t been my strong suit before then. Writing became a tool that helped me become a better dancer. I’ve written dance and cultural criticism in the past and there I was thinking of how to translate an hour-long performance into so many words and the impossibility of that task. Then I decided to write a sports novel. (laughs)
Drew: There’s a clear link there to me though, because you write physicality very well and athleticism very well. How do you approach that?
Benedict: It’s a delicate task where I want to be specific in certain ways without being too rote or itemized or atomized about a person’s body. I want to create a clear sensation and image but I also want to infuse that with a degree of mood. And then with the satirical element of the book I’m also trying to make fun of it at times. I think there are moments where the seriousness of a life devoted to one’s physical performance — and I felt this in my dance life as well — that commitment can feel bizarre.
Drew: That makes me think about how it connects to the presenting of oneself on social media as a sort of influencer. What about that world were you hoping to capture and satirize?
Benedict: The way the algorithm prioritizes beauty and prioritizes face to the screen over other compositional choices in photographic or film medium. It’s a codification of sex sells. But unlike the 1990s, no one is exactly discussing it that way. Or, at least, not as much. The “hot” in Hot Girls with Balls is that it’s a given our protagonists are extremely beautiful. And they know it and they’re aware of how that affects the growth of their fan bases. It affects their careers offline and their relationships to their sports team employers. Athlete as celebrity blurs public self and personal brand.
Drew: Even though Six and Green are active participants in their careers as influencers, it does feel like the book is getting into something around the way race and gender identity often force people into that kind of space. Only some athletes get to just be athletes. When you have these points of identity you’re more likely to have to fall into this influencer space in order to turn these things into commodified plusses in the eyes of your employers and the culture rather than hindrances.
Benedict: Yeah people have been talking about the flattening of social critique and identity politics that occurred in the 2010s social media era. The logic of celebrity affects people who are genuinely activists and then get incentivized to build their platforms and then that slippery slope into hawking products on a platform that might be well-intentioned but are not that different from a traditional influencer hawking a beauty product in terms of the distribution flows from product to influencer to consumer.
Drew: The book is so grounded in our current moment, but it exists in this explicitly parallel world due things like Flitter instead of Twitter. At what point in the process, did you find that angle and what was the intention behind that distancing?
Benedict: It’s the most surface-level satire of the book. It immediately reminds the reader that even if things feel extremely familiar, the book’s orientation toward our timeline is slanted. Even on a drafting level, I didn’t want to be typing out the names of corporations that I don’t care for.
Drew: (laughs)
Benedict: I didn’t want these names printed ad infinitum. But this allows a reader to recognize an applications interface without me having to spell out how a certain 3×3 grid is shaped.
Drew: You float from these various limited third perspectives. Did the decisions to favor which character at which point in the story come naturally? Was that something that shifted through revisions?
Benedict: I wanted it to be somewhat volleyball rally-esque. It bounces between Six and Green and it sometimes bounces between Six and Green and somebody else.
Drew: Sometimes it goes out of bounds.
Benedict: Way up into the stands. And having that structure helped shape the delivery of information. There are moments when it’s not exactly even.
Drew: As in sports.
Benedict: Yes.
Drew: Why volleyball? How did your interest in the sport develop?
Benedict: We’re sitting outside watching a bunch of people play and I just think it’s such a stunningly gorgeous use of round sports ball. Basketball does not look this good. Soccer does not look this good. Throwing up the ball, looking back, and then swinging your arm around your shoulder socket and hitting the ball real hard — that’s beauty, baby. (laughs)
Drew: It’s very aesthetic. When did you start playing?
Benedict: I had some high school gym class, but I didn’t touch a volleyball again until I started writing this novel and thought I should remember what it feels like. And I was like, wait is my hand-eye coordination better than it used to be?
Drew: That’s a great thing to learn.
Benedict: It’s been great playing a lot more again rehearsing for Defense.
Drew: One of the aspects of the book that I find most interesting and that I think people will potentially fixate on because it’s of the moment is that this is a trans women in sports book. How did you decide to make it about trans women playing in men’s sports specifically?
Benedict: That was a day one conceit, because unfortunately the narrative pathways — at least in my imagination — for where a trans woman could go in a women’s league feels so predictable and in a novel less compelling to write about. At least to me.
Drew: Totally.
Benedict: Whereas our protagonists complying with the conservative thought that they should just play with their gender assigned at birth draws attention to the paradox of gender and opens up space for humor. I had fun showing the girls on a boys team dynamics.
Drew: And in terms of hormones and how medical transition is discussed in the book, was everything just character driven and narrative driven or were you thinking about the wider conversation? I guess the question is are you able to remove yourself from this fraught world that we’re in right now where trans people in sports has become a moral panic or did that weigh on you as you wrote?
Benedict: Within the novel, the narrative deliberately doesn’t give that much insight into Six and Green’s personal choices around the question. But that debate does happen around them and about them. And I think the tension between Six and Green making empowered choices around their medical transitions based on their experience of their genders within or outside of the context of the sports regulations and market incentives is an ambiguity that I invite a reader to interpret.
Drew: It’s a sports story, but it’s also a love story. I appreciated how the book is romantic and I was rooting for this couple, but you don’t brush past the challenges of the relationship and even certain incompatibilities between them. Can you talk about creating Six and Green as a couple?
Benedict: When I knew that I wasn’t just going to have one but two Asian American trans women as my protagonists, I knew that they had to be lovers and I knew that they had to be opposites.
Drew: You said well they obviously have to kiss.
Benedict: (laughs) Well, yeah. And there’s definitely black cat/golden retriever energy and that allowed me to differentiate them on the page and their orientations toward social media and their sense of stability within the sport. I wanted the density of all of the similarities in the structures of their lives with their different personalities to create tension and have that be an internal motor of the plot alongside all the other outside events that happen.
Drew: Do you think there could be a Six and Green in professional sports? I know mens sports are very conservative and very toxic toward queer people but I am always waiting for a baseball player to transition. Or even come out as gay would be huge I guess. (laughs)
Benedict: That’s part of the satire/fantasy/alternate reality of the book is that I have a hard time imagining someone truly being able to be out in this way and progress in a sports field without real obstruction. But it has been great to see the proliferation of queer sexualities of athletes that I follow. There was a nonbinary track runner at the Olympics last year which was very cool to see. I recommend reading Michael Waters’ The Other Olympians that traces the history of trans athletes in the 1930s amidst the rise of fascism and Cecé Telfer’s memoir Make it Count which discusses her journey from becoming an NCAA champion to competing in the Olympics. Oh there was also a nonbinary figure skater at the 2022 Olympics. And gender was happening.
Before you go! Autostraddle runs on the reader support of our AF+ Members. If this article meant something to you today — if it informed you or made you smile or feel seen, will you consider joining AF and supporting the people who make this queer media site possible?
Drew is a Brooklyn-based writer, filmmaker, and theatremaker. She is a Senior Editor at Autostraddle with a focus in film and television, sex and dating, and politics. Her writing can also be found at Bright Wall/Dark Room, Cosmopolitan UK, Refinery29, Into, them, and Knock LA. She was a 2022 Outfest Screenwriting Lab Notable Writer and a 2023 Lambda Literary Screenwriting Fellow. She is currently working on a million film and TV projects mostly about queer trans women. Find her on Twitter and Instagram.
Feature image of the Budapest Pride Parade 2025 by Janos Kummer via Getty Images
June was a hard month for democracy in the United States. Now that Pride is behind us, it’s time to take stock—not only of what we’ve lost, but also of the lessons we urgently need from LGBTQI+ victories and resistance to growing authoritarianism around the world. This week, Budapest Pride in Hungary offered exactly such a lesson.
The month began with World Pride in Washington, D.C., where turnout was half what organizers predicted, and not a single federal official took the stage. Thanks to discriminatory policies under the Trump Administration—like Secretary of State Marco Rubio’s trans visa restrictions—many trans and nonbinary people were simply too afraid to travel to the U.S. By contrast, World Pride in Australia in 2022 became the country’s biggest event since the 2000 Olympics.
The Canadian organization EGALE called for a boycott of World Pride in D.C., and governments from Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, the Netherlands, and the United Kingdom issued official travel warnings to LGBTQI+ citizens about visiting the United States. Such warnings are usually reserved for places where homosexuality is illegal or blackmail or there’s utter impunity for anti-queer-trans violence. The fact that the U.S. is lumped into that category is staggering.
After years of progress for LGBTQI+ Americans, a recent wave of federal anti-LGBTQI+ policies and court rulings has brought a dangerous new reality. Just this week, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that schools must permit parents to opt out of LGBT-themed books and expanded presidential power even when it risks violating constitutional rights like birthright citizenship. A week earlier, the Department of Health and Human Services defunded the suicide hotline for LGBTQI+ youth. From the Skrmetti decision, to executive orders attacking so-called “gender ideology,” to bans on diversity, equity, and inclusion programs, to illegally withholding funds allocated by Congress—the list of authoritarian actions keeps growing and the pace is overwhelming to keep us feeling powerless.
That’s why Hungary’s demonstration of resistance matters so deeply.
In March, Prime Minister Viktor Orbán’s government banned Pride events under the pretext of protecting minors from the “depiction or promotion” of homosexuality. Yet this past Saturday, over 300,000 people flooded the streets of Budapest Pride in defiance. Marchers risked being identified through facial recognition cameras blanketing the city, as well as fines equivalent to $686 each (€586). Considering that only about 30,000 attended Budapest Pride last year, this was a resounding rebuke to Orbán’s repression.
Though likely no fan of Budapest Pride, Donald Trump has openly admired Hungary, calling it a “strong country” and Orbán “a very great leader, a very strong man.” Orbán has become a MAGA favorite because, as Kevin Roberts of the Heritage Foundation explained, “Modern Hungary is not just a model for conservative statecraft, but the model.”
We’re doubtful that’s the only reason for the infatuation. Hungary today has channeled wealth to Orbán and his cronies, earning it the label of the European Union’s “most corrupt country.” It has eroded judicial independence, suppressed university free speech, seized control of the media, and tampered with elections, earning a rebuke from the European Parliament as an “electoral autocracy.” Sound familiar?
We believe that Hungary represents the kind of country Trump and his allies want the United States to become. And Orbán is the kind of ruler Trump aspires to be. We’ve seen many of the strategies from the Orban playbook used by Trump this term. This means there could come a day when Pride is banned in the United States, too. Instead of imagining that as some distant nightmare, we have to face the long-standing truth: American exceptionalism is a myth. And we must learn how Hungarians are fighting back and how to muster the courage to rise up to protect our democratic freedoms.
Americans don’t have the luxury of time. Orbán’s crackdown on LGBTQI+ rights developed gradually. By contrast, the Trump Administration’s attacks on queer rights, diversity, and democracy have been swift. We need to anticipate the next attacks and move from merely reacting to actively charting our own path forward.
Researchers of authoritarianism have actually measured what type of civic resistance works to overthrow authoritarian, illiberal regimes. Looking at hundreds of campaigns over the last century, Harvard University’s Erica Chenoweth found that nonviolent campaigns are twice as likely to achieve their goals as violent campaigns, and although the exact dynamics will depend on many factors, Chenoweth has shown it takes around 3.5% of the population actively participating in the protests to ensure serious political change. Nearly 3% of Hungarians joined Budapest Pride in spite of Orban’s threats.
Three crucial lessons stand out from Hungary’s LGBTQI+ movement.
First, activists pulled from a diverse toolkit.. Human rights defenders turned to the courts, published op-eds, debated opponents on television, and built coalitions across sectors of society. Broad tactics matter.
Second, Hungarians understood that LGBTQI+ rights are inseparable from the broader fight against authoritarianism. It’s not only about queer people—it’s about fighting corruption and defending democracy and equality for all.
Third, they infused resistance with creativity, humor, and joy. Local political groups organized a satirical “Grey Pride” rally a month prior, and instead of beautiful rainbow flags, they carried monochromatic signs proclaiming, “Sameness is trendy.” As one organizer explained, “That’s the twist, of course. We don’t want everyone to be the same.” People love Pride marches because of the colors, the diversity, the freedom, and the pure queer joy that is palpable. We should keep celebrating the beauty of our queerness.
The work in Hungary isn’t finished—but it’s making a difference. People are mobilizing, finding hope, and showing that countless everyday citizens are willing to take risks for justice. That’s why hundreds of thousands poured into the streets last Saturday to claim their rights despite the ban and threats.
Hungary is just one example. Across the globe—from Uganda to Kenya, Lebanon to Egypt, Indonesia to South Korea, Poland to the United Kingdom, Guatemala to Argentina—LGBTQI+ movements are resisting powerful adversaries and defending their rights and the dignity of all. Studying these movements isn’t optional—it’s essential if we want to chart a path away from the threat of American autocracy toward democracy, and perhaps even toward equity.
While some in the U.S. are retreating—like too many corporations, law firms, and universities dismantling diversity, equity, and inclusion programs—others are stepping up. Litigation is working. Community organizing is flourishing. People are starting to create the muscle memory to protest regularly in the streets and to defend their immigrant neighbors. There are early signs that Congress might eventually reassert its constitutional role as a check on presidential power. But as Senator Chris Murphy has even said, “The only route through this crisis is the mobilization of the public.”
While the start of the month in DC was lackluster, the end of Pride month proved inspirational. All of us have a role to play. Doing something regularly helps keep hope alive and despair away. Call your representatives every day—even if they’re already supportive, they need to hear from constituents. Join a community mobilization group like Indivisible or Working Families or Public Citizen. Get trained to help immigrant neighbors resist illegal deportations. Find your way to engage that matches your particular risk tolerance, but don’t let fear immobilize! If nothing else, donate to organizations doing good work. And if you are able, show up for every mass mobilization. Keep queer joy, humor, and defiance alive in your activism long after the parades end.
As our Hungarian friends have shown us in vivid color, we are an essential part of the resistance—and of the fight for equality itself.
Muster all your courage for this moment. What we all do collectively right now will write this chapter of history.
Before you go! Autostraddle runs on the reader support of our AF+ Members. If this article meant something to you today — if it informed you or made you smile or feel seen, will you consider joining AF and supporting the people who make this queer media site possible?
Julie Dorf is a highly respected career professional and a pivotal figure in LGBTQI+ human rights. With over 35 years of unparalleled leadership experience, she has consistently demonstrated expertise in policymaking, direct advocacy, and philanthropy, establishing herself as a trailblazer in the global LGBTQI+ rights movement. Her extensive contributions include founding Outright International (formerly the International Gay & Lesbian Human Rights Commission), where she served as Executive Director from 1990 to 2000. She later co-founded the Council for Global Equality in 2008, a coalition of 40 U.S. human rights and LGBTQI+ organizations and continues to serve as its Co-Chair. In this role, she plays a key part in advocating for inclusive U.S. foreign and development policy. Additionally, she advises Equality Without Borders, a group of individual donors dedicated to supporting international LGBTQI+ rights organizations.
Jessica Stern is the former U.S. Special Envoy for the Human Rights of LGBTQI+ Persons and the former Executive Director of Outright International. She is Co-Founder and Principal of the Alliance for Diplomacy and Justice, an initiative consisting of former ambassadors, special representatives, and special envoys advocating for human rights, inclusive development, and global justice in U.S. foreign policy. She is currently a Senior Fellow at the Carr-Ryan Center at the Harvard Kennedy School.
Friends, we’re finally at the end here. After ten episodes that somehow felt like 50 episodes, The Ultimatum: Queer Love season two arrives at its ultimate conclusion with this reunion episode. Below, find my reunion thoughts. And catch up on recaps from the whole season!
The Ultimatum: Queer Love Recap – Reunion
Okay, as someone who watches a lot of reality television, I’m a little confused about why they did the reunion the way that they did here. On most Bravo shows, the reunion is filmed after the events of the actual season but also after at least some episodes (often, half a season) have aired for the public so that the cast members can respond not just to what was in the episodes but also how viewers reacted to what was in the episodes. This reunion however was filmed a year after the events of the show but before any episodes dropped for the public. They don’t know what we’re seeing and picking up on!
I mean, let’s go ahead and start with what I think is the biggest shocker of the reunion: Magan and Dayna are still together. I’m shocked that they could have watched episodes one through nine and stayed together, but I have to wonder if once they’re more aware of how their relationship is perceived by viewers that it’ll shift something. I get that we’re seeing something produced and can’t know everything about other people’s relationships as mere reality television viewers…but is anyone watching and NOT seeing Dayna’s behaviors as manipulative and controlling? It’s not subtle! I don’t know how it could be spun in such a way that we’re “not seeing the real Dayna.” But who knows — her middle name is practically Spin!
But I suppose I’m getting ahead of myself! Let’s get into our updates on each of the couples. This recap is going to jump around the episode a bit, because it’s a chaotic episode!!!!! So instead of going linearly, let’s go couple by couple.
Britney + AJ
These two bring the least amount of drama to the reunion, because they’re still happily together in a way I find entirely convincing and sweet! They are still engaged but not married yet with no date picked. They have a location in mind though, and they’re thinking Destination Wedding. They both look great. They have learned a lot from their experiences on the show, including more work-life balance for Britney and more confidence for AJ. AJ thanks Marita for telling her that if it ever came down to the business or AJ, Britney would choose AJ every time. That gave her the push she needed.
We’re also treated to a clip package of all the times AJ talked about herself in the third person. Did other people notice this as it was happening during the season?!?!?! Because I did not, but seeing it all packaged together really made me laugh!!!! AJ’s just gotta be AJ.
Joanna Heterosexual Garcia Swisher asks the group if they think AJ was too forward during the dating week at the beginning of the season, and Ashley emphatically says yes in a way that suggests Ashley has some resentments about it. What I love about this whole thing though is that Britney doesn’t care at all. She knows AJ is just a charming flirt. She never seemed particularly threatened by it, and even now, she doesn’t care. Again: AJ’s just gotta be AJ.
The strange part of this though is how aggro Marie gets? Like Britney, I struggle to see Marie’s point when she keeps drilling into the fact that Britney and Marita got to have this lovely trial marriage that didn’t really threaten their existing relationships and meanwhile Marie had to see Mel with Dayna while also contending with the fact that Britney and AJ were meeting up. I agree with Britney: It seems like Marie is holding it against her that she ended up in such a good and low-stakes trial marriage with Marita. Marie just wants…empathy from Britney? This feels like such misdirected intensity from Marie, but that’s pretty much her mode the entire reunion.
“I’m trying to be so soft with everybody,” Marie says. If this is soft mode, I’m scared to see hard mode!!!! The vibe is so off. I think she’s just mad at Mel and doesn’t know how to process or direct that anger, so everyone’s catching strays.
Marita + Ashley
Unsurprisingly, these two are no longer together. But their interactions in the reunion are truly shocking. It gets a little confusing, because they both are still pretty bad at communicating and they also both clearly have entirely different ideas of what really happened, but I’ll do my best to summarize.
Marita shares that on decision day she was so heartbroken she didn’t know what to think or feel. She says when they went back home that Ashley was using her (???) and then Marita kicked her out and told her to go back to Indiana. Marita says she broke up with her in May. Ashley chimes in to say they did not get back together after the show but they went to Key West and had a good time. Marita interrupts. She accuses Ashley of gaslighting. Ashley says she was just acting weird on the show because she felt uncomfortable around cameras. This is a mess! And it’s about to get messier.
“Let’s talk about the fact that my grandfather was dying, and this one was cheating on me,” Marita says, pointing at Ashley. Marie asks if they had actually been together when that happened (why is Marie inserting herself here?!), and Ashley says that no they were not together. Marita is so perplexed Marie is weighing in, and same! Ashley says she can name five times that Marita cheated on her, and Marita says the words “I actually fucking hate you,” which MY GOD! I already found Marita to be pretty emotionally immature, but this is bad. There’s something about her reactions to things that just feels so childish to me. Ashley shares that her grandfather is dying right now, and Marita says she doesn’t care. Ashley walks off, and Marita says “yeah, get out!” Mel follows Ashley, and Britney goes to Marita to give her a hug.
I know we, again, don’t have all the details or know what really happened, but it’s hard to really see Marita’s side here, especially knowing Ashley’s history of abusive relationships. Marita’s desperate to control the narrative, and it’s not a good look!
Marie chimes in again to say “I see you. I’m right here. Let’s simmer.” Y’all WHAT is going on with Marie!
Ashley returns, and Marita vaguely apologizes? But it seems more like she’s apologizing to the Straight Host than to Ashley. Ashley says she could never scream that she hates Marita, because she doesn’t. She shares she was bawling her eyes out after Marita blocked her, eventually realized her self worth and tried to pull herself together, but that Marita and her have never been able to communicate about any of it like adults. You don’t say!!!! I don’t think there’s any real coming back for these two.
Straight Lady Joanna Garcia Swisher attempts to at least reorient the conversation back to the events of the show, and Marita sort of tries to blame Bridget and Kyle for talking Ashley into reversing the ultimatum? Bridget assures Marita that Ashley loved her a lot and there was no convincing that occurred.
Marita did not want to marry Ashley when the show began, and I just really don’t understand what Marita wants period! Other than a bouquet of grocery store flowers and some hand holding I guess?
Marie + Mel
If you can BELIEVE it, these two are also broken up. OBVIOUSLY. Marie has a very bizarre agenda at the reunion. First, she asks Dayna if she and Mel had hooked up prior to the conversation Dayna had with Marie at the cocktail party. Dayna says they kissed but that more didn’t happen until after the party that night. I get the impulse to become obsessive about timelines in the wake of being lied to by a partner, but babe, none of this matters anymore! Y’all are broken the hell UP!
Mel says Marie didn’t want to be with her anymore, and Marie confirms she broke up with Mel before the episodes aired, which she’s grateful for because she would have been embarrassed to still be in a relationship with Mel while watching the episodes. Leading up to the breakup, Marie had set more boundaries and didn’t want to do the food truck as much anymore.
Things get weird again. “Did you really think I didn’t know that you couldn’t have kids?” she asks Marie. Listen, I don’t really ride for Mel, but this is a wild thing to use against Mel! Marie then also says something about Mel’s lupus, and Mel never disclosed her actual chronic illness, so it’s kind of fucked up that Marie makes that choice for her! Marie also asks something about where all the lupus books went, and Mel is like I gave them away. I’m sorry…does Marie want credit for buying Mel books about the disease Mel has?
And now Marie wants to move on from lupus to………brussels sprouts. She wants to know what was up with the brussels sprouts Mel made for Dayna. Dayna is super confused. But Marie wants to know one thing: “Did you like them?” she asks Dayna, who is like yeah sure but come on what is this even about. “Who taught you how to make those?” she asks Mel, and Mel says “you didn’t teach me anything,” prompting Marie to call her crazy.
What is going on!!!! Marie is clearly just so mad at Mel that she can’t even really articulate herself. Sometimes when one is betrayed in a relationship, suddenly everything becomes a betrayal or evidence of the primary betrayal. I’ve been there, and I’m glad there weren’t reality television cameras around, but come on! Be mad about the brussels sprouts in your DIARY, don’t air this out publicly because you’re going to sound absolutely unhinged!
Please weigh in on BrusselsSproutsGate in the comments, because I’m still reeling.
Joanna “I’m an Ally” Garcia Swisher then wants us to dig deeper into the question of whether Mel lied to Marie on camera about having sex with Dayna. OBVIOUSLY, SHE DID, though I hear Mel is still defending the lie on TikTok? Can anyone confirm? Joanna asks Haley if the Spotify playlist was the receipt to which she referred when she told Marie there was proof Mel and Dayna were fucking, and Haley does regret using the language of “receipt” and “proof” but says yes that’s what she had been referring to.
We then get a clip package of everyone in the cast reacting to the Spotify sex playlist scandal. The playlist was called “three weeks” with a rainbow emoji and a ring emoji. Haley says it had some horny songs on it and was being played at suspicious times of night. I’m mostly like: HOW DID MAGAN AND HALEY SEE THE PLAYLIST IN THE FIRST PLACE? There was clearly some producer intervention, but I don’t really understand the logistics.
In any case, Dayna wants to make it clear that the playlist had a lot of sad and yearning songs on it, too, and would have made for a depressing sex playlist. She thinks it was none of Haley’s business to bring it up.
And then there’s another clip package, this time of everyone in the cast attempting to define sex, with AJ explaining that the spectrum of what “counts” as sex can be expansive for queer people and lesbians. Dayna is insistent she and Mel didn’t finger each other. Joanna asks Mel outright if she had sex with Dayna, and Mel won’t answer, Dayna interrupting to say it’s no one’s business. Joanna also asks if Mel feels like she lied to Marie, and she says yes but also no? I’m sick of everyone on this show!!!!!!! Just be honest!!!!!
As for Mel and Dayna, Dayna tried to FaceTime Mel after filming, and when she didn’t answer, Dayna sent her a message and then was ghosted for two months. Finally, Mel wrote her back. The not-gay host asks what the tattoos mean to each of them now, and Dayna says they’re just a way to remember their time together. Mel says they were essentially in a competition with each other to see who could make the stupidest decisions. You know…I feel like there’s something about Mel and Dayna that really works. But alas, Dayna and Magan are locked IN. Did anyone else feel like they were GRIPPING each other to show just how strong they are coming out of all this?
Marie has nothing left she wants to say to Mel, and Mel has nothing left she wants to say to Marie. The food truck is fine by the way, I’m sure you were wondering. Mel is running it solo.
Kyle + Bridget
After a clip package featuring everyone’s fur babies (gay!), we move on to Kyle and Bridget for an update. They’re still engaged and living together. They don’t have a wedding date picked yet. Bridget makes a joke about being pregnant and then says no they can’t actually afford that. We get one last monologue about love from Kyle’s mom, who quotes the Wicked song “For Good,” which is sweet, but there’s nothing else to really say here! Good for them for being low drama, but it doesn’t make for the most thrilling reality television!
Haley + Pilar
These two are still engaged as well! When they left the show, Haley promised to propose back to Pilar within the year, and she did it one month later. They’re planning an elopement because of the state of the world and how Haley wants the extra security legal marriage could provide. They might eventually have a wedding.
Pilar did end up sharing her engagement with her parents and has come so far with them. Her entire arc all season was one of my favorite parts, because familial estrangement for queer folks is so common and so hard. She says she started standinf up for herself, which has led to more open doors. When she brought Haley to her cousin’s wedding, which was the first time she had brought her around extended family, she shifted from introducing her just as “Haley” to “my fiancee Haley,” which she said forced them to really look her in the eye and accept Haley’s role in her life.
Magan relates about the family stuff. Even though her family is coming around now, it was so push and pull for years, and she felt rejected by them, but she keeps choosing herself and it pays off. I do love this moment of connection between Magan and Pilar. They both have done really hard things by asserting themselves and their queerness around their family. Pilar has come so far in how she views and deals with her family situation just in the course of this show!
JGS then wants to hear Pilar’s point of view from the night at the club with Kyle. I’m still unclear on what happened here also. Kyle wishes she could have been better about communicating how she felt. Pilar wishes that, too. Kyle cries again about how Pilar was there for her, and they hug. I think these two have closure over the whole thing, but I don’t? And I guess that’s fine! I’m not part of their lives! For viewers, it just went down so confusingly and was hard not to view it as anything other than Pilar ignoring Kyle’s boundaries? But that doesn’t seem to be how either of them are framing it now, so I’m not sure! Thoughts? Put them in the comments, because frankly my brain is just one giant brussels sprout.
Pilar says it was confusing to watch Haley and Magan but that she mainly just didn’t want to look stupid. But Pilar also realized she wasn’t prioritizing Haley by watching Haley with Magan and she was able to figure out what Magan could provide that she wasn’t and then adjust. Okay, I hate to say it, but this might be an instance where the premise of the show actually…worked? And brought two people closer? And helped them fix relationship issues? I can’t believe I’m admitting that!
Joanna asks Haley what it was like to be in love with two people at the same time, and I swear this show exists in a weird world where the words “poly” and “nonmonogamy” cannot ever be said??????? Anyway, Haley says doing the physical stuff with Magan made it that much harder to separate out her feelings. She also just really wanted to make Pilar feel secure after that, which she seemingly accomplished. So I think when everything’s said and done, Haley and Pilar both really handled everything together pretty well!
Dayna + Magan
I am just!!! So put off by these two still being together!!!! They’re still engaged, but they don’t have a wedding date yet. So literally no one has a wedding date yet. I get it, weddings are expensive and take a lot of work but set a date people! I don’t know why this is stressing me out!
We get a montage of Dayna and Magan’s past year together, which would be cute if I were more genuinely invested in this relationship, which I’m not!!! In fact, as the montage played, I wrote in my notes: “I’m scared.”
Magan has been bringing Dayna around her family, which is a big deal! I’m really happy for Magan’s growth she has been doing around her family, much like Pilar. Dayna says Magan has been really brave and believed in herself, and she admits that she finally had to be the brave one in going over to Magan’s mom’s house and acknowledges the bravery on her family’s part, too. Magan and Dayna didn’t anticipate their situations being so dramatic on television and hoped that maybe going on the show could help normalize queerness and queer relationships in some people’s eyes. Now they’re worried people could see their behavior on the show and think queerness is messy and fraught. Woof, I definitely understand that burden of representation!
Magan has previously mentioned that doing the show was the most queer and queer-affirming space she has ever really existed in, which is huge. I think Magan has done a lot of growing into her own queerness through this experience. I’ve watched a lot of reality shows recently where people have essentially used the platform of reality television to come out to family. Lake on Southern Hospitality kind of did it, too. It does seem like even though their drama ended up being pretty heightened, Magan did gain some tools for how to better advocate for herself and meet her family where they’re at.
Magan says that being with Haley was good because Haley was a good listener and gave her space. She found a lot of clarity in talking to her. Magan does say that she was telling Haley all the time that she loves her and wanted her in her life. She thinks Haley would have been an amazing friend to her. So I think this is Magan sort of reframing being in love with Haley to just loving Haley. And maybe that’s sort of what she was getting at when she first tried to backtrack telling Haley she loved her? But it all feels like a a weird spin again, and I can’t tell if Dayna’s the one holding the wheel or if they’re both sort of complicit in this attempt to reframe and control the narrative about Magan/Haley. I maintain that Haley did not use Magan nor does she owe Dayna an apology. And it’s hard not to notice how defensive Magan always has to be with Dayna. We saw a completely different Magan with Haley. I’m confused!
AJ and Britney hope Dayna/Magan and Pilar/Haley can end in a good place, because they’re friends with both couples and would love to have them all at their wedding. Marita hopes everyone can hold hands after, which is a wild thing coming from the only person who screamed “I hate you” during this reunion!
Joanna Garcia “Not a Lesbian” Swisher concludes that it seems like everyone is in a great space. DOES IT? AJ thinks the host deserves more credit for what she does, which prompts ol’ Jo to cry because it means so much to her because she really considers herself such an ally. No, I’m sick of all the attempts to make it seem Actually Good that she’s the host of this show! Get a queer host, I beg!
Before you go! Autostraddle runs on the reader support of our AF+ Members. If this article meant something to you today — if it informed you or made you smile or feel seen, will you consider joining AF and supporting the people who make this queer media site possible?
Kayla Kumari Upadhyaya is the managing editor of Autostraddle and a lesbian writer of essays, fiction, and pop culture criticism living in Orlando. She is the former managing editor of TriQuarterly, and her short stories appear in McSweeney's Quarterly Concern, Joyland, Catapult, The Offing, The Rumpus, Cake Zine, and more. Some of her pop culture writing can be found at The A.V. Club, Vulture, The Cut, and others. When she is not writing, editing, or reading, she is probably playing tennis. You can follow her on Twitter or Instagram and learn more about her work on her website.
Kayla, my wife and I have literally been refreshing the autostraddle page like crazy every time we watched episodes, just waiting for your recaps. Then we’d drop everything and read them to each other. They have been so much fun!!
One thing about the reunion. Although I do not condone how Marie was behaving, I think what she was trying to get at with Britney/AJ is that even thought Britney had Marita to talk to, she still called AJ away from Marie in order to talk. Which probably left Marie feeling really alone, since she couldn’t talk to Mel, and also AJ was off taking care of Britney. I do get where she was coming from there.
Other than that, Marita’s behavior was absolutely shocking, Magan and Dayna are wild and PLEASE YES QUEER HOST NEXT SEASON.
Thanks for all the work you put into getting these recaps out so quickly, they were a highlight of our days!
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Thank you for reading!!!!!! Means a lot to me!!!!
And okay yes I see Marie’s point technically. The delivery was just 😳
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Oh yeah the delivery was objectively horrendous 😂
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Yes, same here! It is always such a delight to read your summaries and thoughts of this wild TV show. The people in my life are not watching (and I find it hard to believe that I am!), so it is great to have other queers discuss it. Also, I love your refreshingly frank assessments on these interactions/people.
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Players often find that the jetski race
serves as a great way to unwind after a long day, as its fast-paced action provides a welcome escape from daily stresses.
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– Dayna about participating in reality TV: “We have something to show for us – be proud – we’re normal.” Having just re-read “Dykes to Watch Out For,” I imagine Mo to say (flabbergasted and in utter shock and disbelief): “Is this progress??? That lesbians now have their own reality TV show?? To show their homophobic relatives that lesbians are ‘normal’? How assimilationist have we become?” I would LOVE to see Mo ranting about that.
– AJ to Marie: “I was always honest with you” – hm, interesting take! AJ was honest after Marie found AJ sneaking in at night consequently to AJ having met Britney. Would AJ have confessed, had AJ not been found out?
– AJ to the straight host: “People don’t give you enough credit for how an amazing host you are.” Me: Confusion! And also: Clearly the host was much better in moderating moments that didn’t end in the final cut because from what I’ve seen, I thought she was really not doing a good job at moderating this. All the yelling, and she just kept saying she saw the growth and constantly asked: “How does that make you feel?”
– I wonder how different Magan would be had she ended up with Hayley. Surely after more than three weeks, her not-so-awesome behaviors would have come out, but also, the people we spend time with inform a lot of how we are and behave, and Magan was different with Hayley than with Danya. Again, only three weeks, but still! It would be interesting to know how Magan could be with an honest, considerate partner who is good at communication. I’m also confused how any of them both thought it was a good idea to remain a couple after having seen their fights reflected back to them by so, so many cameras, but some people seem to need the drama and don’t do stable relationships. I don’t know.
– Yes, Marie was intense and it was a bit much, but I understand where she came from and would cut her some slack after the way she has been treated, not just by Mel. I liked how sha was asked if she had anything to say to Mel. and Marie just replied: “No.” That was powerful.
– It seems like Marita behaves in a way as if she’s skipped crucial development stages as a child or teenager or is now regressing. Not behavior or reflection that I would expect an adult to have! Then again, this world is in a horrific state because adults make terrible decisions so maybe I am too optimistic what adults should be able to do. Happy for Ashley that she doesn’t have Marita as a partner anymore and I hope she can do some healing and maybe find a partner who actually considers her, including her story of intimate partner abuse and its consequences.
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– re: Dayna wanting to “seem normal”: I am circling back around to why some queers hate the heteronormativity of it all on this show. GIRL, YOU CAN NEVER BE NORMAL ENOUGH FOR FASCISTS TO NOT HATE U!
– I would also be mad if my partner made my brussels sprouts recipe for someone else and lied about sleeping with them, especially because food seems to be so special for Marie and Mel. that said, Marie, maybe coming here was a bad idea for you. you have to go yell about this in a bar with your friends. every betrayal seems to have taken on equal weight for Marie in the wake of it all and it’s like, okay, this is not even half as bad as the matching tattoo thing! or the repeatedly lying to your face thing!
– genuinely sort of sick to my stomach that Magan and Dayna are still together, but happy for Haley and Pilar! I think it is easier for Magan and Dayna to stay together if they exist in this narrative that Haley is a villain/used Magan/was crazy/misinterpreted Magan’s words and actions… but it is so jarring to have seen what we saw in terms of VIDEO EVIDENCE of the trial marriages and then hear Magan say those were platonic “I love you”s. WE HAVE THE RECEIPTS BABE! I suspect this may be a situation where in like 3 months they are broken up. time will tell.
– I wonder if Dayna is Magan’s first queer relationship, or at least first serious one?
– sometimes i wish there was no host at the reunion because I feel like she asks questions I don’t care about? I don’t need clip compilations? joanna, please. i HATE the straight propaganda at the end. I am happy the cast feels seen by her and likes her, but I need a queer hosting this show yesterday. i have a LIST.
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does everybody know that The Food Truck has a brussels sprouts dish called Brothel Sprouts
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are these THEEEEE brussels sprouts?!??!
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WHAAATTTT?? I NEED MORE INFO ASAP
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Sighs in gay angst, Idky I watch this show bc it always leave me with such a heavy feeling. I do know why, I’m desperate for queer tv!
Marie, I want such good things for you babe! I know you’re angry, you mentioned it on the show and it was so visible how angry you were and I’m sitting here screaming for you! I wish this girl so much healing and I think there’s so much to heal from and let go of in terms of anger. I get the Brussel sprouts too, and I’m so glad she is not with Mel. I do think she felt cheated by AJ still connecting with Britney and prob Britney and Marita felt cheated too bc they didn’t pick each other. The show prob needs a new format so there are options for the trial marriage outside of the six couples?
Can we just talk about how Kyle’s mom’s words for Pilar had me in shambles. I immediately texted my mom sobbing and thanking her for her unconditional love.
Mel
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I have a strong suspicion that Dayna got coaching from a PR professional before the reunion, because the state of Magan and Dayna’s relationship and the way Dayna was speaking in the reunion were SO different from what we had seen in the show that I have a difficult time believing that was natural growth on their parts, and Dayna in particular.
(I’m imagining her parents deciding that while she is a talented SPIN amateur, her skills needed refinement from a SPIN mentor.)
Or maybe she got A LOT of therapy to help her with ALL her refusal to take ANY responsibility?
I also want to say that I got a bad vibe from Marie throughout the season, but I couldn’t figure out why. I still don’t get what was going on there, but I felt the reunion confirmed what my gut was saying.
I do need a reporter to find out exactly what went down between Ashley and Marita. I mean, Ashley’s sisters were basically telling them to break up. It felt to me that Ashley couldn’t commit to Marita, but she also couldn’t let her go, and maybe there was see-sawing afterwards where Marita felt jerked around? Marita is just so angry and Ashley just seems so confused. But those two definitely should not have gone to Key West together after the show ended. They needed a clean break, and clearly they got the opposite.
I enjoyed these recaps so much! This is the distraction I needed from All The Horrors!
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Marie herself said that she is an angry person. That she is angry at the world. When talking about her mother to AJ. So I think some if it can be attributed to that. She’s mad, sad, angry and disappointed. It makes her act like she hates the whole lot of them.
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Magan and Dayna still being together at the reunion was MIND-BOGGLING yikes yikes yikes.
Marita saying such childish things throughout but especially at the reunion makes me wonder if that has something to do with what she mentioned about being a child/teen pop star and that stilting her emotional development at an important time of her life.
also I have so much sympathy for Marie. I agree that she didn’t come across as super logical with her remarks in this episode, but to me it was pretty clear it was because she was holding herself back from giving the producers one of those classic reality TV reunion moments where someone absolutely goes off screaming like “how could you lie to my face like that when you were fucking Dayna the entire time!!!!” which i kind of wish she had done, but it was very cool of her to be like “no” there’s nothing else to say to Mel.
also Straight Host trying to wrap it up at the end with “clearly you have all grown so much” despite all evidence to the contrary made me actually laugh out loud. her “moderation” this whole season was so lackluster. PLEASE GET A NEW HOST
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JGS really is not a good host, straight or gay, she stayed way too silent during that reunion. And I cant believe she said everyone was in a good place at the end??? 😂
Also CANNOT believe we got a Dayna and Magan in love clipshow at the end……they were the “villains” of the season!!!! Dayna the crimes you have committed on this show……….scary to see her get out of this reunion unscathed. But just highlighted the maturity of Haley and Pilar. Whew!!!
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Ughhh I want to like Britney because I did in earlier episodes but I’m starting to feel she is media trained because of her business and better at hiding her mean girl behavior. I see the subtle things people do. The way she wouldn’t let Marie speak, just so Brit can be tacky and invalidate someone’s pain/experience to highlight how “AJ is so great”. The fact that Britney/AJ are friends with Dayna, and their other friend Marita came out of absolutely nowhere to say something so cruel while Britney hugs her. I don’t buy it.
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What a rollercoaster of a reunion! This recap captured all the beautiful, chaotic mess perfectly. The drama between Tiff and Mildred was just jaw-dropping. It’s so intense but also important to see these complex queer relationship dynamics play out on screen. Thanks for the great write-up
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lol the bot wrote about the wrong season
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Question-before decision time, Haley gave Magan a tee shirt. Was there ever a reveal? Any guesses what it said?
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I love that any given reunion episode could be retitled JGS flounders in a pool of lesbians
When I started estrogen, I knew my penis would flounder and I’d grow breasts (awesome!). Every community of trans women within reach was replete with discussions about the usual suspects: breast development; fat redistribution; reduced body hair growth. These are well-known effects of feminizing hormone replacement therapy (HRT).
What surprises me is just how much other stuff is managed by primary sex hormones. The EPA (bless their hearts under this administration) notes that there are over 50 hormones in humans. Most of them serve a regulatory purpose. Some of them are necessary for life. Estrogen and its manly counterpart are only two of those, but their overabundance or deficiency can change the entire experience of living.
So here’s my I Lived It story about unexpected things that happened to me (and others) who started feminizing HRT.
1. I’m so much cooler these days
Literally and figuratively.
There’s this physiological quirk where on average, men work more comfortably in cooler temperatures than women and cis women are sometimes shown to be more sensitive to temperature changes than cis men. Recent research has extended this temperature sensitivity to trans women on feminizing HRT. And what does this research prove? That my feet are cold. Although I already knew.
As estrogen took effect, my experience of temperature changed. I run cooler than I used to. I get cold more easily, and need more layers to feel comfortable. Most importantly, I can handle heat better than I used to. Despite naming myself Summer, I used to hate the warm half of the year. I now find heat tolerable, although humanity’s collective efforts push my limits every day.
The relationship between sex hormones and temperature is wild. People have argued that office air conditioning is sexist due to its discomforting effect on women. Menopausal hot flashes are strongly associated with a decline in estrogen production. There’s even a hypothesis that clothing habits of trans women like tucking may increase scrotal temperatures, which reduces our sperm quality. Hilarious, since nothing kills our sperm faster than estrogen in the first place.
No, there isn’t enough research on this topic to establish a scientific consensus. Much of it is anecdotal. What I can say for myself is that I love cool environments. I have nerve damage that impairs sweat production, so I overheat faster than almost anyone. Estrogen made my body run cooler to counteract the nerve damage and I finally feel normal.
2. My veins don’t pop as much
This one was circulating (heh) on Reddit early in my transition. The prospect excited me. Visible vascularity is the veininess you see under the skin. Some of it criss-crosses directly under the surface. It’s especially visible in high blood flow areas like the feet or on flexed muscles. The latter part explains its association with fitness and bodybuilding.
The association of vascularity with muscularity and strength ran counter to my personal transition goals. I’m preoccupied with daintiness to a fault. The prominent veins cutting across my forearm and shin were a bug, not a feature.
Estrogen addressed that. My veins are much less visible than they used to be and it comforts that soft spot in my self-esteem. My thinking brain knows that all bodies have veins and they all look different, but it’s hard to shake some of the self-talk.
For a more informed take, Dr. Anastacia Tomson (general physician, activist, and fellow estronaut) says, “Lower body temperatures result in less vasodilation (that is to say, the blood vessels under the surface of the skin do not expand as much as they would under testosterone).”
3. Peeing yourself a little bit. Forever
Within months of my first dose, I saw a reduction in muscle mass. Expected. I also started peeing myself a tiny bit after every trip to the bathroom. Every single one. Less expected. The standard twist-and-shake was no longer sufficient. I wrang my penis for a few more drops. I worked my kegel muscles. I started wiping and leaning forward to get gravity in on the action. Once satisfied, I’d get my clothes back on, wash up, and leave.
Then pee myself a bit as soon as I sat down.
Dr Tomson’s fancy word version is that, “Estrogen can cause changes to skeletal muscle in terms of mass and strength, and this includes the muscles of the pelvic floor, which could lead to certain kinds of incontinence.”
That’s very unfortunate for my thirty year-old ass because incontinence is a word I associate with people who are much younger, older, or unluckier than me. Sadly, my girlfriend, our girl bestie, and an assortment of women in my life have verified this. They all pee themselves a bit after we think we’re done. I just arrived late to the party.
4. Dying but in a girlypop way
Hormones are intimately linked to disease risk. I mean, numerous conditions just happen because of hormone imbalances. Most of them make life awful. Some of them make life awful, then kill you.
Besides all the other stuff, primary sex hormones can alter a person’s risk profile for various diseases. Early research suggests that trans women on estrogen and anti-androgens have a five times lower prostate cancer risk. This coincides with the use of antiandrogens to inhibit prostate cancer in cis men.
Estrogen gave me breasts, but my girlfriend gave me a crash course on the self breast exam. Because guess what? Having breasts significantly increases the risk of breast cancer. Including for trans women.
Taking estrogen orally (usually via a pill) is also loosely linked to an increased risk of cardiovascular illness in trans women. But this possible negative side effect doesn’t amount to a meaningful argument against feminizing HRT. All HRT, anti-androgens, and puberty-blockers have long histories of use in cisgender populations and their application to trans bodies is merely a matter of equal access to healthcare.
The research seems to mirror Dr. Tomson’s best guess about risk profiles, which was, “Overall cardiovascular risk decreases, and we expect (but have not proven) that prostate cancer risk will also drop. The risk of developing blood clots may increase with certain forms of feminising HRT, and ostensibly the risk of breast cancer can increase too.”
When I started estrogen, my informed consent documentation highlighted these risks. I signed off anyway. In hindsight, one of my strangest sources of gender affirmation has been knowing that I’m much more likely to die ‘like a woman’. That’s comforting… I think.
Hormones: One cause of, and solution to, all of life’s problems
This sourced list doesn’t cover half of it. Some notable runners-up included feminizing HRT’s ability to halt or reverse androgenic balding, scattered reports of sharper vision and smell, and reduced acne. Every study I found championed the need for more research into transgender endocrine health because it would improve healthcare delivery and reduce risks.
In my life, I’ve joined my cis girlfriend and girl friends in attributing the numerous physiological ills and gains to hormonal fluctuations. The more I read into the workings, the more I realize that I can blame anything that goes wrong in my body on sex hormones and have a decent shot at being right about it.
However, I’ve yet to find an explanation for people’s growing desire to hurl objects at Supreme Court buildings after major rulings that prohibit medical equity. Further data is required to establish a meaningful consensus on this phenomenon.
Before you go! Autostraddle runs on the reader support of our AF+ Members. If this article meant something to you today — if it informed you or made you smile or feel seen, will you consider joining AF and supporting the people who make this queer media site possible?
Summer Tao is a South Africa based writer. She has a fondness for queer relationships, sexuality and news. Her love for plush cats, and video games is only exceeded by the joy of being her bright, transgender self
Oh yea, my girlfriend has the same issue with the peeing thing on estrogen. But weirdly I’ve had a similar thing as a trans masc on T.. it turns out that the same way being on T can cause vaginal atrophy, it can also cause atrophy in the bladder, etc. Afab people in menopause also frequently experience urinary incontinence due to dropping estrogen levels. So now I pee during sex or if I suddenly sneeze too hard. 🙃
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There is a study on body temperature change in trans men from the EU from ca 10 years ago, and it proved that the change was not just subjective, but the physiological temperature change actually by half a degree on T, or something. Quoting from memory here, so don’t take my word for it.
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Thanks for sharing Summer! Insightful and delightful – a much-needed reprieve from the usual.
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Huh, I also experience the #3 🫤 I’d been assuming it was fluid stuck in the, y’know, urethral U-bend, and I’d taken to standing up holding toilet paper to catch anything…
If it’s not that, and is actually a near-universal estrogen thing, that’s one “pro” off the list with regard to getting that U-bend taken out 😶
GREAT NEWS to all our To L and Back friends and family! We’ve gotten the band back together for two very special episodes covering the glorious mess known as The Ultimatum: Queer Love. You can listen to two episodes — the first recapping the first chunk of episodes and the second covering the final three, right here. But we’ve also got a video and transcript for our AF+ members, right here.
Riese: Hi, I am Riese!
Drew: And I’m Drew.
Analyssa: and I’m Analyssa!
All: And this is To L and Back The Ultimatum Queer Love Edition!
Riese: That was really good. No, no rust at all that time. It was perfect. Now we’re really back from the L.
Analyssa: Now we’re really in it.
Riese: Okay. So the first episodes have come out, you’ve already listened to our podcast on that topic. Everybody is responding on the internet to the first batch of episodes, including everyone who’s in it. Like, I think every single cast member has made a video reminding everybody that they’re real people and that nobody should be mean to them.
Drew: Fair.
Riese: I don’t know if this happened the first time around or not, but like on TikTok, like every other video I have, is a different Ultimatum cast member being like, “just remember that we’re trying hard to live, you know.”
Drew: This is maybe hypocritical of me since I’m literally recording a podcast about this show, but I can’t imagine caring enough to go after these individual people! Maybe it’s more — people like posting a reaction and then it just happens to cross the feed of the person they’re talking about — I don’t know how many people are like personally reaching out and like commenting on these people’s pages, ’cause that feels crazy to me.
But recording a full podcast, that’s just totally normal!
Riese: Just another day in the office.
Drew: It’s part of my job. So, you know, I’m just trying to get health insurance like everyone else.
Analyssa: That’s kind of the thing about reality tv, right? Once you’re on reality tv people can post about you on social media and say whatever they want.
I guess someone could do that about me, but I’m interacting with fewer people and fewer people know who I am. So like — where is the line of being mean and bullying? Are we not allowed to say anything about anyone who’s been on reality TV? I just find that very fascinating.
It’s happening in my Love Island discourse also.
Drew: Hmm.
Analyssa: They’re having a mean season.
Riese: Well, I for one love Islands. On that note, should we talk about the episodes? We’re gonna talk about eight, nine, and the reunion, which was a wild event. Our screeners for it haven’t been color corrected yet and the sound hadn’t been mixed yet. So I don’t know what you guys are gonna see, but what we saw, like color-wise also was just very fascinating. It had a, like a soft metallic glow. It felt like someone had spent a lot of time in Party City with a specific color palette in mind, and we’ll see how that turns out in the final episode. And I’m sure everybody’s on the edge of their seat as far as that’s concerned.
Analyssa: That’s the most exciting thing about the reunion to await.
Riese: So we return to our couples in strife.
Drew: I think we start with Pilar and Haley.
Riese: Haley and Pilar are, believe it or not, having a bit of a rough go of it.
Drew: Kind of! I also think that the way they communicate is so much better than most of the other couples, in my opinion. Like, yeah, they’re going through a period of time where they’ve been together for 10 years. One of them just — I’m doing air quotes right now — “fell in love with someone else” — and they’re navigating that. There’s issues but you know, Pilar is saying to Haley, I can’t tell you how to feel. I just think that they’re navigating it in a way that I would hope if I had good friends who I cared about, who were hoping to maybe at the end of this fight still be together and this rough patch still be together.
Like they are navigating all of this quite well, in my opinion.
Riese: I agree. It actually also did remind me of the Mal, Yoly, Xander thing from season one, where Mel was commended for communicating effectively, not flying off the handle. It feels like that’s the same case here where Pilar is like, “I’m gonna make space for the fact that you had this experience, but like, I’m still here and I’m still like fighting for you,” you know?
Drew: Yeah.
Riese: And isn’t that lovely?
Drew: It is.
Riese: Okay. Dayna and Magan. Magan says she missed Dayna, and she lost hope and isn’t sure if she would’ve slept with Haley had the pool incident not occurred. The pool incident that we all know changed the course of human history. In my notes, I said, Dayna is still lying. And then said she needs surety, which is not a word. And Dayna’s through line for all of this to Magan is like That wasn’t you. That wasn’t really you. I can’t believe this is you. I don’t know what that’s about, but that’s like a really interesting approach. It’s interesting, you know? Okay.
Drew: Yeah, I think you can’t, I mean, you can, Dayna’s doing it, but be like, “I don’t know how to trust you again for doing this thing that I also did, but I’m lying about also having done it so.”
Analyssa: But even regardless of that, Magan called Dayna in the first few nights being like, “I don’t wanna do this.” And Dayna said, “if you’re committed to me, you will commit to this experience,” which is bananas, and Magan said, okay, I will do that
Riese: Yeah.
Analyssa: You can not like the way that she did it. That makes sense. But being like, “I can’t believe you would commit to this experience and do the thing that Netflix is trying to get us to do.” When Dayna has done the exact same thing and is committed to lying about it on camera, which is wild.
It doesn’t make any sense to me. Like the, I understand people are heartbroken, so the logic isn’t really the point, but the logic doesn’t track.
Riese: I felt like she was just using it to have the upper hand in the fight. I guess that’s her business. She’s a real person, so I dunno.
Analyssa: I think it’s in Kayla’s recap, she was like — I wish that Magan had revealed that she hooked up with Haley earlier so that Dayna can’t just hide behind that the whole time. Like use that. and that was prophetic.
Riese: Indeed.
Drew: My next note is, “I don’t care about Marita and Ashley.” Sorry. So I’m gonna hand that off to any notes that you both have on, on this couple that’s just … clearly over.
Riese: I transcribed a quote? “We’re never promised tomorrow.”
Drew: Hmm
Riese: Someone said that, and I guess that’s true. We could all die tonight!
Drew: And do you wanna die being in a relationship with Ashley or not?
Riese: Yeah. Do you wanna die romantically or do you wanna die having to make your own dinner? Hard to say, but I wrote, “nobody opens their mouths.” Oh, they met up with Ashley’s sisters. Yeah. They’re all good real people who had the same hair and I thought that was adorable for everyone.
And it seems like they should break up.
Analyssa: It seemed like the sisters are also rooting for them to break up. They’re like, “no, we love you guys and we want you to be happy, but if you can’t be happy, maybe break up? And it doesn’t seem like you can be happy.” Like they kind of just keep cycling through that.
Riese: Well, we’re never promised tomorrow.
Analyssa: So true. I find them fascinating to watch because I think it’s so interesting to have chosen to be in a four year relationship with someone when you don’t like how they behave.
Like it’s not a values situation. It’s not like a, “I thought I wanted kids and I thought you did too, and now we’re four years in.” It’s like, “I don’t like that you don’t do nice things for me.” And the other person being like, “well, I can’t do nice things for you.” And nobody’s been willing to change their position on that in four years is like shocking to me.
Like I’ve dated people for less time who have done things that are annoying and I’ve been like, well, that’s just who they are. Or I’ve been like, okay, I don’t wanna deal with that. Like those are the options.
Riese: They do a lot of stuff in this show and all the Netflix reality dating shows that I’ve seen where they talk about the other person and what they like about the other person. But usually it’s what they like about what the other person brings out in them.
But they don’t spend enough time, in my opinion, telling me like, what do they do as a couple? Like what are their things together? What TV shows do they watch? Like what’s the little bagel store they go to every Saturday? What are the ties that bind them together? Do they send each other cute emojis in the morning?
Do they text each other from the other room and say, I’m eating your Butterfinger, like my wife does? What are the things that they do? And I say, get your fingers off my Butterfinger!
Speaking of butter fingers. Mel and Marie. Uh, Marie wants Mel to feel safe and love and trust makes Mel happy.
Drew: Mel says that she might never want safe and stable. Mel’s still sort of like in that world of Dayna—
Riese: Bonnie and Clyde!
Drew: Bonnie and Clyde! True romance. We’re just gonna just ride it out until we can and leave as many bodies in our wake as we need to, to prove that we’re outlaws in love.
Which is a way that people feel —and you shouldn’t then be in a relationship with someone and have a business with them. Then it just feels like Mel’s in a place maybe to just like — run around and live life and be free.
Riese: Yeah, like a bird.
Drew: Like a bird.
Riese: We go back to Haley and Pilar. Haley never felt like Pilar was prioritizing her, and Pilar wants to show that. Apparently they ran into Dayna and Magan at a club, and Magan said that they needed to cut all contact. And I’ve got a feeling that was Dayna’s idea, just a theory here!
Drew: Yeah.
Riese: Dayna says — tells Magan — that her relationship with Haley is not appropriate. Haley ignored Magan at the gym. These are the days of our lives like sand through the hourglass. Again, Magan doesn’t “sound like herself” whenever she says something that Dayna doesn’t like. She’s like, “that’s not, that doesn’t sound like you, you don’t sound like yourself.” Yourself only says things that I like.
Drew: I just have. “Yikes. Yikes, yikes!” That’s the note that I have here. So I don’t know what that was exactly in response to, I’m not having fun, not being super detailed in my notes, but it was between Magan cutting off Haley and Dayna saying Magan can’t be friends with Haley. So in between there, someone said something.
I’m gonna guess Dayna said something that made me go, “yikes!”
Analyssa: They’re really mad that Haley liked a photo of Magan’s on Instagram.
Riese: Yeah. More fights like that!
Drew: There’s a lot of Instagram drama.
Analyssa: We forgot to talk about Haley blocking Pilar or Pilar blocking Haley on Instagram After posting Kyle with heart eyes?
Riese: We should all be posting Kyle with heart eyes more often.
Drew: I’m not ever posting Kyle with heart eyes. Sorry.
Riese: That’s your prerogative. But they’re real people!
Drew: And you know what? Something brave about me — and they do, but not all of them can be posted with hard eyes by me. I only have so many hours in the day. If we do the math here, there’s a limit to the number of people I can post with heart eyes.
Analyssa: And me and Riese are in the top 10.
Drew: Oh yeah. I’ll post both of you with heart eyes.
Riese: Thank you so much. I’ll post both of you with heart eyes too. I will And I’ll see if my wife blocks me. Or if Kyle blocks me! But speaking of Kyle, they meet up with the parents and Bridget just still doesn’t get why marriage as necessary. And Kyle’s Dad says, “you don’t have enough money to get married. What are you guys doing? ”
Drew: Another real person on this show who is obsessed with “for sicker and through sickness and health for richer and poorer.” I’m like, man, we’re really, it’s really getting brought up again!
Riese: Should we get rid of those?
Analyssa: Bridget is like, “what is marriage?” And the parents just start reciting the vows and it’s like, no, no, no. Yeah, we, we all are aware of that, but it’s like, again, Bridget’s point — fair. Yeah. You guys are already kind of doing that, you know?
Drew: Well, and then —
Analyssa: But what they really mean when they say that they are poor is that they can’t buy a home in Los Angeles, which is like—
Riese: No one! Who can?
Drew: Literally who is a homeowner?,
I did gasp when Kyle’s dad was like, you shouldn’t get married. Um, if I was Bridget, that would make me wanna get married more.
Analyssa: I was, I was just about to say!
Drew: Okay. We’re not gonna be able to own a home? Well, let’s, let’s do this.
Analyssa: Bridget being like, “marriage is maybe too traditional and not really for me.” Like someone saying like, “well, you can’t do it because you’re not traditional enough.” I’d be like, “hold on. That’s up to me!”
Riese: Exactly. AJ loves Brittany, she worries she’s not enough.
Analyssa: The crowd cheers!
Riese: We too love Brittany. This is a relatable emotion. She says she’s worried she’s just not enough, and Brittany’s like, ‘okay, be more!” And again, queen! No notes.
Drew: Yeah, this was really revealing in a way that, some of the stuff from the last batch around like AJ being like, “you care about your career too much and you’re not like around to make me food!” And that was a little bit eye rolly. Like it’s clear that it’s more attached to like self-esteem and wanting to also have a career path that feels equal and insecurities around not having that.
And that was the final sort of moment that made me go like, “okay, I can, I can root for these real people to work things out if that’s, if that’s what they want.”
Analyssa: They’re real people when we’re excited about them. In the way that, in the way that Magan’s only really being herself when Dayna likes what she says,
Riese: Exactly. Yeah.
Analyssa: They seal it with a very, very sexy kiss for the, like, sushi restaurant that they’re in!
Riese: That was a big day at the restaurant!
Analyssa: But the cameras do a lot of angles, so you know they’re not sitting right next to anybody. They’re like “we’re gonna be on the booth on the other side of them.”
Riese: Do you sit next to your partner?
Analyssa: We sit across from each other.
Drew: I would say usually across, Elise likes to sit next and I’m always a little bit, like, I just feel like I can talk to you more while, like, I, I not to not be
Analyssa: my head.
Riese: I have an ex who always wanted to scooch up next to me, and I was like “I don’t know!’ It was adorable, actually, but I prefer across. I don’t see any advantage to the side by side.
Uh, how do you feel about PDA? I don’t know if I would kiss in a restaurant. Is that internalized homophobia or is it because I’m afraid people think we’re sisters? And then is that internalized incest phobia?
Drew: Hmm. Wow. Lots of unpack there. Um, I also struggle with this sometimes where like, don’t want to be someone who worries about like, what am I actually worried about, right? Like, am I worried about people being weirded out and making a comment? ‘Cause okay, I can get through that.
I’m not actually worried about violence. I don’t think so. I’ve been pushing myself to be more PDA, I’m very good at PDA if I’m like drunk out late at night and then the vibes feel, you know, whatever. It’s the daytime walking around or sitting at a restaurant where I do have a hesitation. But I’m working on it. I like other people’s PDA. Put on a show for us, you know?
Riese: Yeah. What are we here for? No one’s promised a tomorrow.
Drew: Exactly.
Analyssa: So today, let me see you kiss!
Drew: Yeah.
Riese: Do you feel differently with having a male partner, PDA than you would with a female partner? Or the same?
Analyssa: I was thinking about that ’cause you guys were both like, well maybe it’s homophobia. And I was like, right, I don’t experience that in the relationship that I’m in. but I think I feel about the same. I think I’m not a PDA person. In the daylight, a peck is something I feel comfortable with and would do pretty much with anybody. But the more intense kissing, I don’t know. Tongue? I might feel differently.
Drew: It might be ageist.
Riese: I was thinking that too.
Drew: I’m 31. Should I really be like hooking up with my partner in public right now? But who says that in your thirties you can’t continue to do that?
I don’t know. I don’t have a strong answer on this. I really feel conflicted.
Analyssa: I think I feel most on board with that actually. I haven’t thought about that, but I feel like a little bit too old.
Riese: Yeah. I’m like, no one wants to see this old hag tongue.
Analyssa: Nobody wants to see all that. What am I doing?
Riese: But everybody should feel confident no matter what age they are, and everyone’s a real person.
Drew: Pilar says is talking to Haley about seeing Magan and is like MAY-GAN? Megan?
Analyssa: “What’s her name?”
Drew: Haley’s, like, it’s very clearly Magan. I have to say this whole episode’s gonna be a lot of me obsessed with Pilar.
I think this is the exact balance between being a mature good partner and being just petty enough that you can hold onto yourself through the hard times of little jokes that undermine the person who your partner has feelings for, but still giving space for the actual mature conversations.
I was cracking up and I was like, this is, this is a perfect vibe. No notes.
Riese: This is like when my ex-boyfriend had this relationship with this other person that he lied to me about. And anyway, I only called her by her AOL screenname, which was AllyBoo. Never Allison. Allyboo forever. If him and I spoke tomorrow, I would still call this girl Allyboo. And that’s what happens if you lie and you cheat!
Analyssa: Then I get to make fun of you a little bit.
Riese: Then I get to make fun of you a little bit.
Drew: It’s a pretty effective bullying tactic? Or undermining tactic?
Riese: In my defense, I was 21.
Drew: Look, I’m 31 and I’m still encouraging people to do this. I just think it’s a pretty, it’s a pretty good — you’re not really making fun of anyone. You’re just forgetting someone’s name!
Analyssa: It’s a little bit like the phrase, “your little friend.” Dayna said that at the Recoupling, which is not like the kindest tone, but being like, “oh, your, is your friend gonna be there?” It’s like that a little bit.
Drew: Look straight people have been using “your little friend” in order to undermine our relationships for years and years and years. So, you know, we could do it to each other. And that’s progress.
Riese: That’s equality.
Drew: Yeah.
Riese: So then there’s a cocktail party, which is wild. Dayna tells Mel she’s being weird. I don’t know why Dayna cares about how Mel’s behaving at all at this point. ’cause she’s already made it clear she’s all in on Magan. Mel is still hung up on Dayna and Dayna says she learned so much, but then also is telling Mel like, I never wanna see this behavior from you.
I mean, Dayna can, the character of Dayna on our television show can do whatever she wants and everyone else is can’t and is at fault. And that’s sort of that sort of her stance it.
Analyssa: I think it’s like that thing where you’re not supposed to be dating someone or hooking up with someone or pursuing someone anymore, but you do still want them to be obsessed with you and miss you and text you and so that you can be like, “no, I’m not doing this.” You know?
It becomes kind of clear that Dayna and Magan wanna be just as committed to each other in these three weeks as they were to their trial partners.
So not having contact with their trial partner while they’re back together with their original partner. But I think in sort of a Dayna character fashion, like it’s a little double sided of being like, well, I’m supposed to be committed to Magan, but it’s really pissing me off that you’re not trying to break through that at all.
Riese: They’ve decided to sort of rewrite history. Magan only did any of this, because first of all, they, of the pool incident. And second of all, ’cause now she’s saying Haley was manipulating Magan and oh, “Magan knows she got manipulated.” “Haley came here to leave Pilar.”
But Haley is so benign as a person! I cannot imagine her manipulating anybody! Magan’s going along with this narrative and being so cold to Haley. I understand they’re focusing on their own relationships, but Haley’s willing to make room for the fact that what they had was real, even if only temporary.
Analyssa: She even tries to, yeah, tell Haley well, “did I say I loved you? Like, I don’t think I did.” And it’s like… you did. We all saw.
Riese: It was on camera! You guys say you’re in love with each other and that you love each other.
Drew: It did give us the episode title, which is “Backtrack of the Century/” which I thought was a great line.I think there’s just like a way that Meghan could have very kindly been like, look, I need some space for the next few weeks because I want to just see if there’s anything here with Dayna and really focus on this relationship.
And then let’s check back in to see what the energy is, whether that’s a friendship or something more. The problem is the structure of the show — you get your three weeks with the trial partner, then you get your three weeks with your original partner and then you make a decision.
In a real world scenario, you could be like, “Hey, I need the next three weeks to just focus — that’d be a weird period of time for some reason — two makes more sense. Gimme two weeks to reconnect and then I’ll let you know. And then the person can be like, fuck that, and then leave.
And then you don’t get to have those two weeks. But in the context of the show, it’s just a little tricky. It’s almost like this show is unnatural? Queerness — natural. The ultimatum? Unnatural.
Riese: Exactly. Ashley and Marita make vision boards. That was adorable, I thought.
Analyssa: First we have this very funny little montage of what everybody’s up to. Ashley and Marita are making vision boards. Brittany and AJ are doing Amazon Prime Spon Con. They’ve ordered a s’mores maker, but with really visible Amazon Prime tape. Haley and Pilar are going — paragliding? Is that what it’s called?
What’s it called when you fly behind the boat?
Riese: Jet skiing.
Analyssa: No, when you’re in the air?
Riese: Um, uh, flying?
Analyssa: Haley and Pilar are flying, which I think is really funny. All the couples are doing boring things like Amazon Prime spon con dates. But then Haley and Pilar who are kind of going through it — they’re like, let’s put ’em up in the air! Let’s add more chaos!
Riese: So, Pilar and Haley have Haley’s dad?
Analyssa: For dinner. He comes over for dinner.
Drew: Haley’s dad says “I’m not just here for Haley. I’m also here for you.” And I did cry. This is actually a new update since To L and Back original episodes is— I cry now. I don’t know if it’s because I went off my SSRI or if I’ve just lhave a really good therapist or what’s going on—
Riese: You’re really depressed?
Analyssa: Maybe your eye thing traumatized you into not crying.
Drew: Oh, that’s true.
Analyssa: You’re pretty far out from your eye thing. Not to be sorry, not to be so former roommate coded.
Drew: No, I love it. You know, my deep lore. This really got me. It was really nice. I think something that does happen with queer relationships is you — whether it’s just with your partner, or with a partner’s family —you develop a family structure that’s, even when you’re not meant to be together, can be really hard to disentangle yourself from and you can feel like you’re like losing your family, not just losing your partner. Which is already, even for a straight person, like a family to some extent.
But it’s just bigger, I think for queer people, especially if you have issues with your family.
Riese: Absolutely. And basically Haley’s feeling like she read Magan wrong and like now Dayna has her claws in and she feels bad and sad, and I do too. I read Magan wrong!
Analyssa: I probably wouldn’t tell my dad that I fell in love with somebody in three weeks?
Drew: I just don’t understand people with this kind of familial relationship. When we get later to the reunion montage of Kyle’s parents, I just, there’s no part of me that feels like, oh, this is so sweet.
And I know it’s probably jealousy.
Riese: Yeah, I think it’s sweet. Magan is proud of her relationship now. Feels hopeful about her parents, like in fixing it because of how great her relationship is with Dayna. Um, okay. Ashley and Marita. Marita still feels unfulfilled.
Analyssa: Marita starts sobbing.
Analyssa: She says doesn’t wanna just be friends forever, which is to me an insane thing to say to your partner of years. They’re not just friends!
Riese: Yeah, they’ve had sex! Sexuals. I think as we’ve discussed, things aren’t going well. Haley and Pilar are still talking it out and Someone says, “I thought the grass was perfectly green with you.” That was sweet.
Analyssa: I think Haley says that, I think Pilar is like, is it just a grass is greener situation? And Haley was like, well before this I thought the grass was perfectly green. Which is lovely. They’re cute and they have a very funny conversation about what viewers at home might be saying about them, and they weren’t wrong.
Drew: I think that it shows the fact that they could work through this. The fact that Pilar is like anyone watching this at home would say we shouldn’t be together. I’m like, you have no idea what’s going on in some, well, I guess they have some idea of what’s going on in some of these other couples, but like —
I’m gonna say something here, a theory, which is that for relationships to work, you need three things.
There’s like some more practical things.
Riese: A house in LA? Amazon Prime? A S’Mores kit?
Drew: You need to share a sense of humor, like be able to make each other laugh.
You have to be able to talk through conflict. Conflict is always gonna pop up. Youhave to be able to communicate through conflict well, and you have to have good kiss chemistry. These are the three things. If you’re someone who’s a sexual person, those are the things you need. Sexual chemistry can be found. Bodies are complicated, especially when you’re queer. But kiss chemistry? I’ve never been able to learn it.
So these are my, these are my three points that I think are the key to a happy, healthy relationship. And I’m seeing that from Pilar and Haley.
Riese: I think you’re right. I think that’s true. I love that theory and you should patent it.
Analyssa: Mel and Marie are at home talking about Mel wanting to be at Stay at Home Masc. My only other note from this is like, it doesn’t seem like she’s ever gonna talk about having hooked up with Dayna. Like that’s just so,
Riese: I wrote, “who doesn’t wanna be a stay at home masc?” I’d do that tomorrow.
Analyssa: I am really worried about what they will both do for work if they break up.
Riese: They could sell Cutco knives. Have I tried to talk about this before on the podcast?
Drew: I’m familiar with Cutco.
Analyssa: My best friend’s sister sold Cutco Knives right out of college and she’s young, so that was recent.
Riese: Well, I’m saying, it’s a career. I wrote “Maria’s trying so hard to get Mel to be a person.” I don’t know what’s going on there, but I love love.
Drew: Great.
Analyssa: The only other thing is in Magan and Dayna’s last conversation, Magan says she wants her life to be like Fast and Furious.
Riese: I want that for her too. I did think — “Oh, Drew will love this.”
Analyssa: I was like, this is for Drew.
Drew: Honestly, I’m over Magan at this point. I do think Fast and Furious is a franchise I very much enjoy, though I feel complicated about Vin Diesel due to recent things that have come out. It’s also the kind of franchise that I don’t necessarily feel an immediate affinity to people in the fandom.
Riese: Magan wants to have backyard barbecues of chosen family, just like in Fast and the Furious. Whenever I watch Better Things and she has all of her smart, creative friends over, that’s when I think I want my life to be like that, like on Better Things. But anyway, there are other barbecues.
Drew: Fast and Furious is like Better Things, if the way they formed bonds was in the previous movie, one of them was the villain and now they’re in the crew. That’s how it…
Riese: So like a hero-to-villain trope.
Drew: Yeah. Villain, villain to Barbecue was sort of the.
Riese: Wait, in Killing Eve, was her name Villanelle because of the word “villain”?
Drew: Yeah, and a villanelle in poetry. But yes, she’s literally a villain character named Vielle, and her obsession is Eve, the first woman. It’s not a subtle show, but it is a good one.
Riese: Okay so episode nine — the proposal episode. Wow. No one’s sure about anything and everyone feels differently, and everything is happening.
Drew: Yeah. It starts with a conversation, or the first thing I noted was a conversation between Magan and Haley. They meet up. Haley gives her a gift she’s like, “I already ordered this anyway,” which again, I very much enjoy Haley. The thing I had to say about this interaction is you fundamentally cannot get to know someone fully in three weeks. You cannot. We can all have different definitions of what love is. You cannot love someone in three weeks. You can have feelings, you can even fall in love. And I’ve said “I love you” very quickly in my relationships. I’m not… you can say anything, you can do anything, but what’s happening here is a very weird scenario created by this television program that forces you to cohabitate, and then you develop a real bond potentially, and that’s real. And you can have hurt feelings over it, but ultimately, it shouldn’t be surprising, specifically saying this to Haley, that the person who you really connected with for three weeks… it didn’t… You’re like, “Oh, I actually don’t know you fully.” It’s like, you could date someone for three years and not really know them fully.
Riese: Well, I fell in love with Magan in three weeks and, like Haley, felt betrayed by this conversation in which Magan said she feels differently and Haley didn’t give her and Dayna the space they needed. I feel like Magan is doing a complete turnaround and it’s very mean.
Just acknowledge you have what you had, but you’ve moved on. But don’t deny it happened. It happened! And we saw it.
Analyssa: It feels like Magan and Dayna have locked elbows and been, “We’re, this is it. We are putting a fence around this.”
Riese: This is the new story and this is the story we believe in going forward.
Analyssa: Which is further to me proven when Magan says to Haley, “if you want to be friends with me in the future, you owe an apology to Dayna.” Which is BEYOND.
Riese: Like, the fuck? For what?
Analyssa: For not respecting our relationship?
Riese: Insane!
Drew: Horrible.
Riese: At this point, I’m supposed to think Magan is a person who’s making choices with free will. I don’t know why I am not willing to accept that! But wild. It takes two to tango, my mom always says.
Drew: Yeah. It doesn’t mean that someone can’t be manipulative, but as a queer community in discourse, we really like to slot people into categories. It’d be very easy, and I’m sure we’ll see this and already have seen this in discussions of this show, to be like, “Dayna’s manipulative and Magan’s a victim.” Not to say that that can’t be possible, but I don’t think anything we’ve seen makes me think Dayna is some unique super-villain or even…
Magan’s making a choice to be with this person. Earlier, I think in the last episode, Haley said something like, “Oh, I thought Dayna was the issue, but maybe it’s Magan.” Two people can be the issue or neither can really be the issue. It’s not good guy, bad guy. That’s not how life is.
Riese: But speaking of good guys, AJ and Brittany! AJ proposes and Brittany says yes, and they’re happy.
Analyssa: It is really…
Drew: Very sweet.
Riese: It is cute. They look great. I’m rooting for them.
Drew: I feel they could make it, which I’m not sure I said about anyone last year.
Riese: Now Pilar is ready for marriage. This show is really good at getting people suddenly ready for marriage. I mean, I have to say, at this point, the shoe works.
Drew: Okay, I would like to… we’ll get to this in the reunion, but no one is married yet. They are engaged. This show’s very good at getting people ready for engagements.
Analyssa: But I will say, weddings are very expensive.
Drew: Oh, totally, totally.
Riese: [Laughter]
Drew: I’m just saying, let’s hold off before we give Netflix and The Ultimatum too much credit.
Riese: But for the straight people, it has worked. Most of them are married.
Analyssa: Whoa.
Riese: The vast majority. Yep.
Analyssa: Good for them.
Riese: Good for them. Yeah. Good for straight people. Yeah, good for them. Whatever. And Pilar has a great blowout. They’ve grown together and they call Haley’s dad and he’s happy, and I am happy for them.
Analyssa: They look really happy. Haley says the ring is exactly what she wanted, and I thought all the rings got distributed at the beginning of this experiment.
Riese: Yeah.
Analyssa: So lucky she got the one she wanted, I guess.
Riese: She wanted one that Netflix picked out.
Riese: And isn’t Netflix kind of picking things out for all of us, if you think about it?
Drew: Maybe the exact ring she wanted was whatever ring that was given to her by Pilar!
Analyssa: Wow.
Drew: So it doesn’t matter.
Riese: Wasn’t there a point in this episode or another episode where they promoted a video game to us?
Drew: It’s at the end — at the very final moments in case your soul is still hanging on just a little bit. Just — BOOM!
Riese: Don’t worry!
Drew: Don’t worry.
Analyssa: You too could be involved in this!
Riese: Yes.
Drew: I was really happy for them and also — my unsolicited opinion, if these were L Word characters and not real people, would be that they should be non-monogamous.
That would be my advice. But I don’t know them in real life. And I also don’t know what happened in their little break. I just am always a little bit ehh with couples that have been together since they were really young. But maybe that’s just a me thing, maybe other people just wanna be with one person forever. It’s just that because Haley just had three weeks of being in love with someone else. I just still want Pilar to get to have — a throuple! Not even with Bridget and Kyle. I think she could do better. A little fling.
Riese: Yeah, they should. They should have a threesome with Alice Piasecki.
Drew: Who? Haley and Pilar?
Riese: Yes.
Drew: Sure. Okay.
Riese: Good, we agree. Ashley and Marita. A black cat is lurking around. She’s like, “Is that a bad sign?” Yeah.
Analyssa: Ashley gives a speech that is so close to proposing, and then at the end…
Riese: Big Love is Blind vibes there. Those at the altar moments.
Analyssa: And then at the end I was like, “But you know, I just can’t do it.” And Marita reveals that she was ready to propose, which I do think is a very easy thing to say when someone has not proposed to you. We don’t know that that’s true.
Riese: But it is an unscripted show, but every now and then some poetic dialogue gets in there, and her being like, “I would’ve said yes, I was gonna say yes.” I was just like, “Ah, this is your rom-com moment.”
Drew: Is now a good time to say that I wrote dialogue for The Ultimatum: Queer Love? I also wrote the lyrics for the song. I was really…
Riese: Oh my God. Is that why the 405 was mentioned in a song that played during Haley and Pilar’s convo? Because that took me out of the moment for sure. Kyle and Bridget. Bridget reiterates not understanding the point of marriage, but they say they’re going to get married. They’re
Analyssa: : They get married.
Riese: Mm-hmm. Yeah. They got married right on the spot.
Drew: I’m not that interested in this couple, but I did find something interesting, which was when Bridget says that Kyle has wanted to go by fiancé because it’s the one gender-neutral term. Someone was just telling me that, I literally was having a conversation with a friend who got engaged and they were like, “And you know, the name of their partner is so excited because this is the one period of time where the words we refer to each other as are gender neutral.”
Riese: People should, yeah.
Drew: Obviously make up new things to call each other, but…
Riese: Maybe “fiancé” will be the next neo-pronoun.
Drew: Mm-hmm. Much to consider.
Riese: Magan and Dayna. First, Netflix replays Magan telling Haley that she’s in love with her, just so we all remember that happening. And then…
Drew: Also during this montage, the lyric — because I’m always listening to those beautiful lyrics — is, “Show me how I can live my life if we can’t be open.” Which I thought was a funny thing for a show that pretends that non-monogamy doesn’t exist.
Riese: At this point in my viewing experience, Jude was being really fussy. So I took Jude and Gretchen began taking notes for me on the program.
Drew: Hmm. Oh, fun.
Riese: Yeah. So here we have: “Mel looks like she’s cater-waitering a child’s golf tournament. Mel’s nervous because Dayna is an asshole. Mel’s in deep with Dayna, but Dayna’s heart is closed for business. Mel is crushed. Mel doesn’t want a friendship. Dayna’s boobs are out. Wow, wow, wow. So frustrating.” She wrote in all caps.
Drew: So frustrating that Dayna’s…
Analyssa: Boobs are out?
Riese: Oh, just the whole thing. Mel got a ring for Marie because that’s what Marie wants.
Drew: Well, okay, wait, before we… I love these notes from Gretchen. Don’t mean to interrupt, but Dayna says the letter that Mel wrote her was the most beautiful letter anyone has ever written her.
Riese: She should have heard what Brian Krakow wrote for Jordan Catalano to give to Angela Chase in My So-Called Life, and then he might rethink that.
Drew: yeah, I guess I don’t have much to add beyond that.
Analyssa: I’ve missed the opportunity a few times to point out Dayna’s insistence on telling people how they feel and what they want. Because when Mel is like, “I don’t want to be friends,” she calls her a liar and is like, “Yes, you do. You do want that.” Again, in toxic situations that you’re trying to walk away from, you can project a lot. I’m speaking from personal experience. You can project a lot and be like, “Well, they really want to be with me. They’re just scared.” Whatever. But what they’re saying to you is they don’t want to be with you, so you just have to kind of grow up and let that go. Dayna does it a lot with Magan, sometimes with Haley, with Mel especially earlier when they were trial wives. Dayna’s like, “You don’t not want marriage. You’re just scared.”
Riese: I think that works both ways too with people like her. When you’re saying it in a positive way, like, “Oh, you want this,” or “You do this, but it’s a good thing,” then that makes… or it’s real, it’s true, then that makes me feel like, “Oh my God, this person who I just met really understands me,” because she’s telling me how I feel and it’s accurate and positive, and it makes me feel good about myself. So it’s a very interesting way to be a person, and that’s not the kind of person that I personally have a good time with anymore in my life.
Drew: Yeah, I just hope that the queer community will not lose sight of the fact that Dayna, at least the character Dayna, is very annoying and unpleasant to be around. And that doesn’t have to mean that she’s abusive or any sort of horrible, toxic, she shouldn’t date anyone ever, we should cancel her and chase her off the internet with pitchforks. She can simply be quite unpleasant. And so many people are.
Analyssa: Yeah, sometimes people are just hard to be around and unpleasant, bordering on mean, and that’s okay.
Drew: Yeah.
Analyssa: Mel says to Dayna that she has a ring, and Dayna’s like, “Well, is it because it’s what you want or because it’s what Marie wants?” And Mel says, “It’s because it’s what Marie wants.”
Riese: Like, Dayna, why are you still meddling? You’re about to go get married.
Drew: Once again, I’m asking this question, “Does Mel know that this is being filmed?” It’s an interesting thing from your interview with Mal about how, as it goes on, you sort of forget some of the cameras because they’re around so much, and that’s a technique of reality TV, et cetera. But Mel being like, “I’m gonna propose because that’s what Marie wants, but I don’t really want that, and I’m sad that you don’t want to talk to me more, and you’re back with Magan.” I’m like, this is going to be seen. If you propose to Marie a year from now, there’s going to be problems. Anyway, then you’re right. Magan is proposing. I wrote, “Magan proposing, my God, yikes.”
Analyssa: And then Dayna proposes back.
Riese: Then Mel says she learned a lot about herself. Marie says they’ve grown so much. Okay. And Mel got her a ring pop.
Analyssa: Oh my God, the ring pop.
Riese: Ring pops. So many flavors and colors!
Drew: Yeah. I don’t know if maybe if I’d seen a different couple, I would feel differently about this, but it felt a little bit like your relationship is not steady enough for you to be doing bits during the proposal. I don’t know about this one. I don’t even take proposals that seriously, or any of it that seriously, but I think given everything that’s been happening, you might want to put the Ring Pop away and get the real ring out first.
Analyssa: No, but it’s like last season when Aussie and Sam were like, Aussie was so commitment avoidant and then was like, “So penguins give each other rocks, so I found you a rock.” It’s like, okay.
Riese: They’re still together and happy. They give advice to other couples about how to be better.
Drew: Honestly, here’s the thing though, when I was giving the most dating advice out in my twenties, I think about that sometimes, and I’m like, “Wow.” I mean, some of the things I said were pretty good, but it’s wild to me that I was allowed to get on the internet and give dating advice.
Riese: We let a lot of people say a lot of things on the internet.
Drew: When I think about the things that I was…
Riese: Advice is pretty benign.
Drew: I mean, it was a real, “Do what I say, not what I do,” situation. And now, look, ultimately I eventually listened to myself and now I’m in a very happy relationship.
Analyssa: Right. Sometimes you have to learn to take your own advice. You probably were giving good advice, just not to yourself.
Drew: The last thing I’ll say about this before we get into the reunion is it is edited to be like, “Yay, love.” And I just think that I could get more on board with a reality television program—
Riese: Boo, love?
Drew: No, not boo love… that didn’t take the circumstances we see and smash it into these boxes. Because that’s actually what’s happening here. This show had to know that by the time we get to the reunion, the chances of Marie and Mel being together were slim. So this music, the cues and everything sort of going to this thing of like, “Love conquers all.” They even do this in the reunion, and it is very annoying to me in some ways. But it just gets, I guess, to the heteronormativity of the whole thing and the structure of this show. Anyway, speaking of, should we get into the reunion?
Riese: We should.
Analyssa: Boy, should we!
Riese: Once again, I have Gretchen’s notes.
Riese shows Gretchen’s notes to Drew + Analyssa
Drew: Wow!
Analyssa: Her handwriting is so cute.
Riese: I know. I love her handwriting!
Drew:Great handwriting.
Riese: She wrote “Reunion episode for Love is Gay Blind.” Okay,
Analyssa: So we messed up the title when we introduced the episode today.
Riese: I’ll tell you what. I did not think Magan and Dayna were still gonna be together.
Analyssa: I didn’t either. And I also thought that Kyle and Bridget would be like, “We are still together, but we’re not engaged.”
Riese: Interesting.
Analyssa: I just had a feeling that they would kind of, to the point we’ve been making of the… it’s like on The Bachelor too, the rules don’t always fit. And I like sometimes when people are like, “We love each other and we want to be together, but this game, the rules weren’t right for us.” And I thought if anybody was gonna be that, it was gonna be Kyle and Bridget.
Drew: Well, then how could Kyle prove to their parents that…?
Analyssa: That they’ve got it all together.
Drew: Yeah, if they’re not engaged, so.
Riese: So this reunion was chaotic and full of drama. Also interesting because after the first Ultimatum, Aussie and Sam were still together at the reunion, but everyone else had broken up. So I was prepared for a similar level of carnage here and surprised to see it was just Marie and Mel. And obviously Marita and Ashley, but also Marie and Mel. We open with AJ and Brit. The relationship is better. It appears. Gretchen would like them to have a threesome with Marita.
Drew: Well, they credit Marita for keeping their relationship working, which I didn’t necessarily see on camera, but love that for them. Love that for Marita.
Analyssa: I think that’s a really sweet, full circle of Marita in The Choice was devastated by AJ, and then ended up with Brittany kind of by accident, and they had a really lovely time. I thought that was very sweet that now she knows them both pretty well and got to play a role. They do spend some time on the AJ dating period of it, and the way everyone keeps being like, “Well, the issue is that she was being really sexual.” We did not see that. I’m sorry, but my definition of being very sexual in dating, in flirting, is not what we saw from AJ. I truly… I was so mad at all of these prudes for acting like she had done something so horrendous. Also, I don’t even know, I don’t need to make it political, but I don’t understand watching this, and maybe something happened off camera that I didn’t see, but to be like, “AJ was just so sexual,” and saying it in this way where it was like something was done wrong. I’m just…
Riese: Right? They’re supposed to flirt.
Drew: Grow up.
Riese: One thing that becomes clear throughout the reunion is that AJ and Brittany were in touch a lot more than we saw. Even Ashley being like, “I was out there with my dog. You guys were always together.” Because we saw AJ immediately switch, and I wonder if the way things went down at The Choice made it that AJ was sort of shamed so much for what was happening that in order to save the relationship with Brittany, she had to opt out of the whole experience in a major way immediately. Even as it was ongoing. AJ’s experience was not a trial marriage. AJ’s experience was dating. They all saw how that went and decided, “Okay, no, you’re off the market. Let’s get it back together.” And they, by the way, look at everyone’s outfits. I think they really killed it. The dress that Brittany’s pulling off is incredible, honestly. So.
Drew: Then we go to Marie, and Marie’s quite angry at AJ and Brittany, and it feels a little bit… also, just watching Marie this whole time, it was so miserable. She just feels very traumatized and very…
Riese: Mm-hmm.
Drew: Sad. It was very not fun. Not in a reality TV way fun. It was just very miserable to watch. But I was a little bit like, “Your anger’s misplaced.” And then it’s revealed later that AJ and Brittany are pals with Magan and Dayna, and I was like, “Oh, okay. This makes more sense why there’s more animosity from Marie towards AJ.”
Analyssa: Yeah. And I think it’s fair to be irritated or even a little bit angry, and I think Brittany and AJ say this, “We get that you might be upset by that. We did what we had to do, and we’re really sorry that that’s impacted your relationship.” I mean, maybe they don’t exactly say that, but…
Riese: So we know that they see the show right before their reunion, right? Like they saw this yesterday and now they’re reunited. My sense is that for Marie, I think the thing that made her feel betrayed by watching it — and maybe I’m projecting, actually, definitely I am, but I think I’m correct — is that Mel telling people, “I’m telling you this thing about myself, about my health, or not having kids, and I haven’t told this to anybody, or I haven’t told this to Marie.” And I think seeing your partner of four years tell people that you are not a trustworthy receptacle of information about their physical health and their ability to have is so, so hurtful and insulting. It’s almost more hurtful and insulting than cheating, because that’s about becoming into somebody else. It’s more hurtful because that’s character slander in a way to be like, “Yeah, I can’t tell. I haven’t told her this.” And also it was cheesy, because as Mel was telling people this, I’m like, “You just told that to someone else. Why are you acting like this is exclusive information?” I think that’s why she felt the most betrayed.
Analyssa: Which, yeah, which they fight about when it comes their turn to discuss what went wrong. And she’s…
Riese: Right.
Analyssa: Again, kind of pointing to like, “I’m your partner. I’ve looked into everything that’s…”
Riese: You think, I don’t know.
Analyssa: “I’ve researched as much as I can,” all that stuff. So I think that’s probably definitely in there. Also…
Drew: Didn’t we get to the real surprise, which is Ashley and Marita? I didn’t know they had this in them. Honestly, I was a little bit bored of them the whole time, and then they did this and.. I don’t grasp what happened between them. I know it involved…
Riese:She was like, my grandpa’s dying.
Drew: And I know that at one point Marita says, “and that’s gaslighting”
Riese: And it was not! It was not gaslighting!
Analyssa: You know what that is? Gaslighting? Nope, wrong.
Riese: Yes. “I actually fucking hate you,” Marita said to Ashley
Analyssa: It sounds like both people have grandparents dying. We’re hurling… I mean, I think when you get to this level…
Riese: You should not be… you cannot be bringing your grandpa’s name into this Netflix reunion. You…
Analyssa: “Are we talking about my grandpa?”
Riese: I don’t know what happened with them. It is wild.
Analyssa: So Marita says that Ashley asked her dad for his blessing. So Marita, I think, went into proposal day assuming that Ashley was going to propose. I think that’s incident number one.
Drew: Mm-hmm.
Riese: Uh-huh.
Analyssa: Then it sounds like they broke up on the show. We saw that. After the show, they did a trip together where Ashley was kind of like, “Let’s still be together. The show doesn’t matter. Let’s, you know, be us.” Then maybe they were confused. My best read is that they were confused about whether that meant they were together, because Marita is accusing Ashley of cheating and Ashley is saying we weren’t together at that time. Everyone’s kind of getting involved on the side trying to parse it. It gets crazy in there.
Drew: A real classic Ross and Rachel, “We were on a break” situation.
Riese: Well, and then Ashley is like, “You cheated on me five times. I could name all the people,” and I’m like, “Name the people! Let’s get ’em in here! Stop talking about your grandpa! Leave him! Leave him out of it!”
Analyssa: Yeah, so Marita is like, “My grandpa was dying and Ashley cheated on me during that.” And Ashley in retort says, “Well, now my grandpa is dying,” which is an insane direction to take that claim.
Riese: Yes. And then Marita at one point storms off the set.
Drew: Well, Ashley…
Analyssa: No. Ashley storms off.
Riese: Ashley.
Drew: Because Marita says, “I don’t…” What does she say? I don’t want to misquote her, but she says, “I don’t care about your grandpa,” or something. It gets…
Analyssa: Which even… which causes all the rest of the cast to be like…
Drew: “Whoa, whoa, whoa. You don’t mean that. You don’t mean that. You don’t mean…”
Riese: “You love her, grandpa, Marita. Don’t talk about Earl like that.” Mel runs after Ashley.
Analyssa: Mel runs after Ashley. Marie inserts herself a lot. There are a lot of very confusing players in this, but Brittany and AJ go to comfort Marita, which makes sense given what we just learned about them. And then Mel runs off to hug Ashley.
Riese: Yes.
Analyssa: And then they come back, and Joanna, Joanna Garcia Swisher is like, “Well…”
Riese: “Everyone has their own perspective.”
Analyssa: Hmm.
Drew: Wait, can I just say that I accidentally called Joanna Garcia Swisher, “Joanna Kara Swisher,” in the first… the first…
Analyssa: I thought you were making a joke.
Riese: I did too. I thought you did it on purpose.
Drew: I learned that you both thought I was making a joke, which maybe I should just run with it, but I really wasn’t. It was in my notes as that because of the famous…
Riese: Lesbian.
Drew: I don’t actually know who Kara Swisher is, except that she’s a lesbian. But imagine if she was the host!
Riese: Yeah, exactly. That’s what they should do. They should be like, “We have a new Swisher in town.” You know, they could do a tie-in with Swiffer.
Analyssa: They kind of talk about Bridget. Marita’s like, “I don’t appreciate Bridget convincing Ashley to reverse the ultimatum,” which I think it was very clear that Bridget was joking and that was something they joked about in their trial marriage. But tensions are so high that I think let’s just let her have that.
Riese: Yeah.
Drew: This is the last time I’m going to be defending Bridget on this podcast episode, but I do think it’s pretty clear that she was responding to the things Ashley was saying. You are… you’re not convincing someone to break up with the person. If someone says, “I think I might not want to be with this person,” and you go, “Well, then maybe you shouldn’t be with that person,” you have not convinced them to do anything.
Riese: No one should be that easily convinced.
Analyssa: Would Bridget have an agenda of breaking up two people that she just met three weeks ago at Max? Like there’s…
Riese: Yeah. She didn’t have…
Analyssa: And Joanna is like, “So do you guys think you’ll ever reconcile?” Which I think is a grave misstep. They should not. I don’t think we should be promoting that at all.
Mel says the relationship is non-existent with like such a shit eating grin on her face that I felt instant rage. Like I was so upset during this whole thing. And when it pans to Marie and you can tell she’s feeling rage, I was like, “you know what? I understand.”
Riese: You know who else understood, according to these notes? At this point in time, Jude pooped his pants. All the way through his onesie through to his bouncer. “That’s how full of shit these people are,” Gretchen wrote.
Analyssa: Jude knew the vibe.
Drew: Even a generous read — like Mel’s clearly uncomfortable. I mean, it was clearly a coping mechanism, and that’s my most generous read. It’s still just, all of this is so unpleasant, and Dayna being so calm in her relationship is also… I was concerned about Marie throughout all of it. The good thing is that they broke up a couple months after the episodes. I was very worried about them watching the episodes still together. So they broke up a couple months after. And then we get into the whole playlist shenanigans. L
Analyssa: Which kind of seems like maybe it’s nothing?
Riese: People don’t seem to think it was a big deal and I still buy it.
Analyssa: The thing that is critical is like they did hook up, and I don’t appreciate what happens next, which is that we do a montage of “what do queer people think is sex?”
Riese: Joanna should have had to answer that! She should have been put on the spot, Joanna.
Analyssa: I just think it doesn’t matter that we all have the same definition of sex. Even a little bit. They did something that was beyond — there’s so much like technicality here and Mel even is like, “Well, by whose definition? He, he, hee.”
Riese: Well, Mel wants to tell the truth, I think,
Drew: Oh, you can tell that.
Riese: Mel is just bursting with it.
Drew: It’s also a thing of the emotions. The combination of emotionally connecting, as Mel and Dayna clearly did, and it getting physical to some extent. The sex acts do not matter. This is my general take: if you are talking to someone, this happens in media all the time where there are two people talking, and they’re like, “We can’t hook up. We’re coworkers, we’re each married, we can’t hook up, but we’re going to go out to eat together and lie to our partners about where we are and look at each other across the table.” But then at the end of the movie or TV season, it’s like they didn’t hook up, they’re so strong. I’m like, “You were just doing a weird kink thing.” This is sex. My definition of sex is whatever is happening right here where you’re sitting across the table, toes touch, but then you won’t let yourself have sex, but you’re talking about how you really want to have sex. This is a bigger betrayal than if you went out to a club and made out with someone, or went home with them and had, you know, all the sex. This highlights that this is a very narrow show. This is The Ultimatum: Queer Love. It’s really The Ultimatum: Cisgender Queer Love.
Riese: Cisgender queer love.
Drew: Yeah, with a few maybe non-binary people that we don’t talk about. Look, I’m not saying I want trans women on this show. In some ways, it’s kind of like…
Analyssa: Save them from this.
Drew: I’m sort of like, “Should trans women be allowed to be on this show?”
Riese: Or the military?
Drew: Yeah. I’ll give an added asterisk to military: people’s health insurance is at risk, and the military targets lower-income neighborhoods. I’ll also add an asterisk to that: in the military, you kill people. I don’t think anyone was killed on The Ultimatum: Queer Love.
Riese: Well, someone’s Grandpa.
Drew: I don’t think we’re allowed to make those jokes.
Riese: I’m allowed to make death jokes because I have had the worst deaths.
Drew: that’s so true. You are allowed to make death jokes. I will let it stand. All this to say, what’s fascinating to me about that exclusionary aspect of the show is it actually feels like they all have a very… I was a little bit like, I was waiting for them to be like, “Well, actually, sex is just when a penis goes into a vagina, so none of us could cheat on anyone.” I was so fascinated by them basically being like, “As queer people, we can’t really have sex and it really doesn’t matter. So you can’t really cheat.” It was so baffling and honestly, not that I ever care about this, but invalidating towards their queerness and towards queer relationships. Anyway, whatever.
Analyssa: Marie is like, “I think anything that’s intimate is sex.” And I was like, “Great.” There were some that were like, “Well, unless mouths are involved…”
Riese: Yeah, I think it was Mel or maybe Dayna who I’m like, “You guys are just fitting your definitions to get ou Of what you did!”
Analyssa: Shape out of what sex is so that theirs is not included. They’re gerrymandering the sex definition.
Drew: Well I learned from a recent Autostraddle article that there’s a lot of people out there who don’t ever wanna do oral. So there’s a whole world.
Should we move on to Bridget and Kyle?
Riese: Oh, you don’t wanna go into the montage of their pets that somebody decided to subject us to?
Drew: No
Riese: Kyle and Bridget are still together. Kyle’s mom says, “because I knew you, I’ve been changed for good,” which is the second time those lyrics have been peddled to us this television season.
‘’Cause that also happened on And Just Like That! Um, so I don’t know what to say about them besides that Bridget has cute hair.
Analyssa: Bridget says, “I finally came to the conclusion, this matters a lot to the person that I love, and it doesn’t matter that much to me. So I’m on board.” And I was like, “Thank you. That makes sense.”
Riese: Yes, thanks for listening to the pod.
Analyssa: Yeah. Thank you for hearing our pod and concluding we were correct.
Riese: Correct.
Analyssa: Haley and Pilar are also still engaged.
Riese: They’re going to elope, they’re living authentically.
Analyssa: Pilar has kind of just detached value from connecting with her parents, which is on one hand sad, and on the other hand seems to be very good for her, and she feels empowered and confident about it. I think that’s a really good outcome for…
Riese: Yeah. People will push you as far as you let them, and that’s what she learned by taking Haley to her cousin’s wedding, just being like, “This is my fiancée,” and realizing that when you don’t give them the space they need to hate you.
Analyssa: They talk about their kiss. It seems like it was all just like a mistake.
Drew: Bridget’s still pissed and.
Analyssa: Bridget does react pretty
Drew: I think for someone whose whole thing, for someone whose whole thing during her and Kyle’s section was like, “Bridget is so kooky. Bridget is so crazy. Bridget is so weird.” I was like, “She cannot even handle…”
Riese: They just meant by that she is in the gig economy.
Analyssa: She’s an artist. She’s creative. Yeah.
Drew: I don’t know. I was very… I was very over that. I think I’m a bit of a Bridget-Kyle characters hater.
Riese: I have no negative feelings.
Analyssa: I don’t either. I feel fine.
Riese: I I feel… Dayna and Magan, we have to see a montage of that. That’s fine.
Drew: If I was Magan’s formerly homophobic family that’s working on it and I saw any part of the show, it would make me homophobic again so quickly.
Analyssa: Well, Dayna even says that, she’s like, “We really went on this show thinking it would show how good we were,” which to that I say, “Whoa, that’s a crazy thing to have thought.” And obviously it didn’t go that way. I don’t know. I can’t tell what has happened, but they do seem more on the same page. So I…
Riese: They seem happy.
Analyssa: I guess, yeah, they seem happy. And I guess in the vein of, I love love and especially love for queer people, I’m like, “Great. I love that.” For…
Riese: Love is, yeah.
Analyssa: It is surprising to me. Dayna mentions that having seen all this back, she can adjust based on what she has seen. Which I was like, “Actually, that’s mature.” That’s a good read. It’s like when you listen to your voice and you’re like, “Do I really sound like that?” She’s seeing weeks of footage of her being intense, to say the least, and seeing there’s adjustments to be made.
Riese:Gretchen wrote, “Dayna says she has a lot to work on, and we finally agree on something.”
Analyssa: That’s how I felt.
Drew: I said sigh. I guess I’m rooting for Dayna too. Mostly rooting for this show to get canceled.
Riese: Why do you want every show we try to do a podcast for to get canceled?
Drew: Why can’t we ever do a show that’s good? Like, no one cares about any of the good shows, and I honestly had a bit of an emotional crisis over the last couple weeks because of this show. I know, I know!
It’s just like media is so broken and Hollywood is so broken. Look, I am literally recording a podcast about this show, so I cannot judge anyone for caring about the show, talking about the show, writing about this show. But it’s just like when I look at the numbers that the coverage we do for this show versus the coverage we do of really good stuff that’s even still fun. I just, I feel deep despair about this show, which honestly, I guess I felt that way about Gen Q too. So I’m really just the person who is… sorry! I’m here. I just… I feel really depressed. I really don’t know what to do with. I just also like, Are You the One? Season 8 was fun queer reality TV that didn’t make me want to die, and that felt actually queer, and we didn’t get another Are You the One? Come One, Come All season? And it makes me really sad. I just wish we had more of that. If we’re going to be obsessing over a reality TV show, let it be the one where there’s a wide range of queer experiences, where they’re having a fivesome, where it’s good. This show just feels so nasty and sad. Maybe we can pivot from that to talking about all of them praising the show having a straight host, and…
Riese: I, for one, love this show and want it to get a million more seasons. I find it incredibly entertaining. I’m not even just doing it like Gen Q where I was like, “I’m doing it for the hits. Gotta get the hits.” I would watch this show even if we weren’t. I mean, I watched it last season. I didn’t write about, did I? Whatever. It doesn’t matter. What matters is that I like this show, but it is sad that everything you said is true. It is sad though. But would anyone have listened to our Transparent podcast?
Analyssa: I would have at that time!
Drew: Oh yeah. In 2014, 2015, 2016. When there was an industry out there for queer media that wasn’t… I mean, not that Transparent‘s a perfect show by any means, but that was an exciting time. That was like, things were starting to happen and Pose came out. It really felt like, “Oh, wow.”
Riese: One Mississippi, Vida…
Drew:One Mississippi was so good. Vida‘s the best show ever. When does P-Valley come back? That’s not a show that I would host a podcast for, but it is a show that I would listen to a podcast for, and it is, I think, the best show on TV.
Riese: Well, in conclusion, I, for some reason, was genuinely moved by AJ and Kara’s conversation about how no one gives her enough credit. And I teared up.
Analyssa: I did not tear up, but I did think it was sweet. I thought it was a sweet ending, not because of praising Joanna Kara Garcia Swisher, but because it seems to get everybody else on the same page. And something we didn’t talk about earlier is Kyle kind of casually reveals that none of them have really spoken since.
Riese: Well, some of them are still friends.
Analyssa: Some of them are still friends, but that they kind of all ended in not really good places with each other, which I thought makes sense. And now after they’ve praised their straight mom, they’re like, “Maybe we could all go for a drink.” And they hug. The only person who leaves early is Marie.
Riese: Did you notice that? When they cut she was like —
Analyssa: She’s booking it out! She’s not doing the hugs with everybody!
Drew: Hashtag I’m with her.
Riese: I feel like if I was her, I could imagine that the next day I’d wake up and be like, “FUCK, I wish I could do that all over again,” because I would’ve known I went into it with my blood boiling, and when that’s happening, I have minimal control over what I’m about to say or do. But also I think everything that she felt was legitimate. You know, I think everybody’s feelings about everything are legitimate — but I do not think Joanna Kara Swisher should do the wedding for AJ and Brittany.
Analyssa: I do hope they get to a place where Dayna and Magan and Haley and Pilar can all be invited. If that’s what Brittany and AJ desire. Although, once you start looking at guest lists for a wedding, I’ll tell you, you start being like, maybe we could cut those people?
Riese: Are you inviting us to your wedding?
Analyssa: Yes.
Riese: Thank you. Okay.
Drew: Wow okay, very on the spot. I was gonna say it would be an honor to be invited, but no pressure!
Riese: It’s okay. It’s okay. You don’t have to.
Analyssa: Well currently the guest lists is 300 people. So.
Drew: Oh, okay. Well, if it was 300 people and I wasn’t invited, I’d be offended. But, but I, my thing about weddings, people that could invite me, don’t invite me. There’s a very small group of people where if I wasn’t invited, I would be deeply offended. It’s maybe two people. Like, it’s your wedding. Have it as big or small — invite who you want.
Riese: I get offended.
Drew: Really?
Riese: I do.
Drew: I guess I’ve just like, people get offended about not getting plus ones all the time…
Analyssa: I’ve never gotten offended about not having a plus one.
Riese: I think it’s ’cause I frequently do think I’m closer to someone than it turns out they feel like they are to me. So it’s really about hurt, it hurts me. Like, it’s about me not realizing where I stand with them, you know.
Analyssa: hmm.
Riese: To end it on a sad note!
Drew: Engagements are long. I don’t know if I’d want a long engagement. I sort of feel like once I’m engaged, I kind of wanna be married. But that means I can’t have a big wedding, obviously.
Analyssa: Yeah, if we wanted to like, elope, we would do it soon and be married. But once you start thinking about planning a wedding, a big wedding, that type of event, venues are booked out. You have to do catering, you have to do like all this shit. I would like a year and a half to plan for that and pay for that. But in my ideal world, we would get married a lot sooner than we’re thinking, but it’s not seeming possible.
Riese: On the note of things ending sooner. Do we have any last notes? Besides that, never on any season of Ultimatum or Love is Blind has anyone ever thanked Nick and Vanessa for anything. And I think that we know why. And it’s because they are bad at their jobs.
Drew: Um, I just wanna remind everyone that if you enjoyed the experience and you wanna feel more involved, that you can play the new Ultimatum Queer Love game that’s available now on Android and iOS. You can feel like you’re part of the action. And we don’t even have a sponcon deal with this.
Analyssa: I hope the pod has convinced you that you want to be a part of the action!
Riese: If you wanna be a REAL part of the action, you should join our membership program AF+. ‘Cause otherwise, who knows how much longer we’re gonna exist!
Drew: To take a note from AJ’s book. I’m gonna say that Drew might end it all if, if people don’t start supporting media beyond the Queer Ultimatum.
Riese: Mm-hmm.
Drew: Drew is very tired and very sad, but also so happy to be with Drew’s pals, you know!
Analyssa: Drew’s doing the best Drew can.
Drew: Drew’s doing the best Drew can and she’s mostly happy to be here with the two of you. If One Mississippi ever comes back, let’s do a podcast about it.
Riese: Oh, that was such a good show!
Analyssa: It was so good.
Riese: Okay. Well, everyone’s gay. And bisexual.
Before you go! Autostraddle runs on the reader support of our AF+ Members. If this article meant something to you today — if it informed you or made you smile or feel seen, will you consider joining AF and supporting the people who make this queer media site possible?
Riese is the 43-year-old Co-Founder of Autostraddle.com as well as an award-winning writer, video-maker, LGBTQ+ Marketing consultant and aspiring cyber-performance artist who grew up in Michigan, lost her mind in New York and now lives in Los Angeles. Her work has appeared in nine books, magazines including Marie Claire and Curve, and all over the web including Nylon, Queerty, Nerve, Bitch, Emily Books and Jezebel. She had a very popular personal blog once upon a time, and then she recapped The L Word, and then she had the idea to make this place, and now here we all are! In 2016, she was nominated for a GLAAD Award for Outstanding Digital Journalism. She's Jewish. Follow her on twitter and instagram.
Out the Movies is a bi-weekly newsletter about queer film for AF+ subscribers written by Drew Burnett Gregory.
“The two girls stood in front of that big wide window in broad daylight and began blatantly and passionately embracing and kissing each other. In defiance of their eviction, they were doing their thing so everybody in the bar could see them. It was a rift I was witnessing right there and then between these two separate worlds: the brazen girls outside who were the very essence of liberation and those old guys at the bar who were sitting there somewhat shell-shocked by something they’d never seen before.”
This is not an excerpt from a lesbian pulp novel. It’s an excerpt from Al Pacino’s recent memoir Sonny Boy. To the famous actor, this expression of queerness was a declaration of a changing time. To him, it was akin to the revolutions happening on the streets and at the cinema.
The 1970s are often discussed as a golden age of American cinema. The Hollywood studio system — and its Hays Code — had been destroyed and in its place were a collection of radical auteurs. Books like Peter Biskind’s Easy Riders, Raging Bulls helped to mythologize this era as a grand artistic achievement of drugs, genius, and masculinity.
Only in recent years, has the cultural canon broadened this American cinematic moment to include a wider range of voices. The artistic freedom allowed during this time didn’t just birth Scorsese and Coppola — it also included female voices like Barbara Loden and Elaine May, Black voices like Bill Gunn and Ivan Dixon, and queer voices like John Waters and Andy Warhol.
But I always say my goal is to expand the canon not replace it. I still love many of the films found on the AFI Top 100 and I believe they, too, can benefit from a broadening of perspective. The Godfather, arguably the mainstream Hollywood achievement of this era, is used to signal toxic film bro taste in both Barbie and the recent show Overcompensating. But its lead, Al Pacino, had a life and career touched by queerness. In fact, go through his filmography and you’ll start to wonder if every Pacino movie is gay.
A couple months ago I watched And Justice for All…, Norman Jewison’s late 70s courtroom drama about a defense attorney named Arthur Kirkland. Throughout the film, Kirkland (Pacino) tries to hold onto his principles while working in our inhumane justice system. The film is a critique of this system where winning and losing are prioritized over right and wrong, where overworked judges and lawyers make rash decisions that result in ruined lives for the most vulnerable.
One of these most vulnerable is a trans woman named Ralph Agee played by gay actor Robert Christian. This subplot is painful to watch due to the realities of how the law treated and treats Black trans women and due to the limits of even the most well-meaning 20th century depictions of trans people in Hollywood. But throughout the film Kirkland pleads for compassion for Agee in the courtroom and in life. There are no deep talks about gender identity, just a suggestion that if wearing a wig makes her happy, why can’t everyone accept it and treat her with respect?
I didn’t watch this film expecting a trans character. Despite years dedicated to the study of trans film and queer film history more broadly, I’d never seen mention of this subplot. Pacino’s greatest film, Dog Day Afternoon, finds his character robbing a bank to get the money to pay for his girlfriend’s sex change operation. But few people seem to mention that Dog Day was only one of Pacino’s movies that decade where he tried — and failed — to help a trans woman.
This revelation led me to watch his first on-screen appearance in Me, Natalie, a movie where a young woman moves to Greenwich Village and has gay neighbors. Then I watched The Local Stigmatic, an adaptation of a play by Pacino favorite Heathcoate Williams, about two gay sociopaths wandering the streets of London looking for violence. Then I finally watched Serpico, a film that isn’t gay but does emphasize Frank Serpico’s effeminate personality and appearance and their connection to his status as outsider in the NYPD he aims to legitimize.
Speaking of the NYPD, have you seen Cruising? It’s a movie where Pacino plays a cop who goes undercover as a gay man. He does poppers at the gay club and then all horned up goes home to fuck his girlfriend. It’s probably the best of his more problematic gay films — certainly better than The Humbling where he has an affair with a lesbian played by Greta Gerwig or Gigli another film with a male-amorous lesbian. (Also better than Jack and Jill if that counts. Pacino is obsessed with a woman — a woman played by Adam Sandler in bad drag.)
One of Pacino’s greatest on-screen performances is his turn as Roy Cohn in the limited series adaptation of Angels in America. Another one of his crowning achievements is Scarecrow, a film about two male drifters who form a homoerotic bond that has complex, explicit depictions of queerness. Then there’s Pacino’s Salomé passion project, a film based on Oscar Wilde’s play shot in conjunction with a run of the piece and a documentary about both. In the documentary, his obsession with Oscar Wilde takes him to the LGBTQ bookstore that holds Wilde’s name and inspires Pacino to play Wilde in recreations. When asked by a producer if his interpretation of Salomé’s King Herrod is bisexual, Pacino says, “Of course.”
In Sonny Boy, Pacino talks about how his performance in The Godfather films was inspired by a line in Mario Puzzo’s book. Michael is called the “sissy” of the Corleone family and that’s how Pacino decided to play him.
Al Pacino got into the Actors Studio with an audition scene where he played a gay sex worker. There he continued to learn method acting, participating in the tail-end of a revolution in the art of performance.
Since I started this viewing project, I’ve been joking with friends that Al Pacino is bisexual. The truth is Pacino’s real-life sexuality and gender mean less to me than the importance of queerness throughout his career. I don’t care if there’s a personal reason why Pacino was so drawn to these characters and stories — I care that in the previous paragraph when I mentioned method acting at least someone reading it rolled their eyes.
Method acting, like 1970s American cinema, has been twisted by its worst fans. Somehow Jared Leto and Joaquin Phoenix have convinced people “the method” is acting like an asshole rather than a series of teachings that encouraged actors to practice emotional replacement as a way to get closer to their characters. The method was about a reduction of artifice, a commitment to realism. Sometimes people mumble, sometimes images are dark.
By the time the method was fully adopted by Hollywood in the late 60s, the movies were responding to a moment in American history where the hope of progress was being crushed by American imperialism. The Hollywood films of the 70s weren’t a celebration of drugs, genius, and masculinity — they were a commitment to artistic purity and clear-eyed reality in a world desperate for both.
The queerness of Pacino’s filmography is a reminder. While the media and your worst uncle claim the newness of queer and trans people, the truth is we have always been here. This cinema belongs to us as much as it does any straight film bro. (Though I would like to note re: Overcompensating, when I went to film school at NYU in 2012, I was one of the only people in my class who had actually seen The Godfather. Film bros of a certain age really preferred Nolan and Fincher.)
To me, the most important film in Pacino’s queer canon is actually a much-maligned straight love story. During a Q&A in 2019, Pacino shared that his favorite of his films is Bobby Deerfield, the tale of a depressed racecar driver who falls in love with a terminally ill woman. While in some ways it’s a sort of prototypical Nicholas Sparks/John Green weepy romance with a dash of early Manic Pixie Dream Girl, there’s a real tenderness to Pacino’s performance that makes it all work.
Early in the film, Bobby’s brother mentions that as a kid Bobby would dance around doing a Mae West impression. Later in the film, the woman he falls for calls him feminine and asks if he’s a homo. At another point, he sits at a bar where he talks to a gay magician and two women dance behind him. (Is this a gay bar? Or just Europe?) Eventually, to show the woman he loves his vulnerability, he will do the Mae West impression he previously denied remembering.
During that same Q&A, he said of the scene, “I was criticized for that Mae West scene, because when I did it, they were saying, ‘Why is he really acting like Mae West?’”
Like Bobby, Al Pacino isn’t gay. But there were always gay people around, and he connected to them as someone with a type of masculinity that left him also feeling like an outsider. This is the history of method acting. This is the history of 1970s American cinema. It’s about connecting across difference. It’s about celebrating the personal. It’s about working outside the system until the systems themselves are forced to change.
When art and history are claimed by those with power, it’s tempting to dismiss the work and seek inspiration elsewhere. But I’m so glad I made my way back to Al Pacino. As we enter into another era of cultural conservatism, it’ll be up to us to hold on to our place in cinema. I refuse to be discovered again in thirty years. I refuse to lose art to its most shallow interpreters.
Before you go! Autostraddle runs on the reader support of our AF+ Members. If this article meant something to you today — if it informed you or made you smile or feel seen, will you consider joining AF and supporting the people who make this queer media site possible?
Drew is a Brooklyn-based writer, filmmaker, and theatremaker. She is a Senior Editor at Autostraddle with a focus in film and television, sex and dating, and politics. Her writing can also be found at Bright Wall/Dark Room, Cosmopolitan UK, Refinery29, Into, them, and Knock LA. She was a 2022 Outfest Screenwriting Lab Notable Writer and a 2023 Lambda Literary Screenwriting Fellow. She is currently working on a million film and TV projects mostly about queer trans women. Find her on Twitter and Instagram.
Already read this in my inbox and adored it! Also feel this is where I’ll receive sympathy for the fact work just scheduled our (mandatory) summer party across my screening of Dog Day Afternoon
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Thank you!! And oh noooo that is cruel. Too bad the work party can’t be a trip to the movie. haha
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I feel like he would love to read this. Someone get it to Al!
And just like that, we’re BACK with the final three episodes of The Ultimatum: Queer Love season two, including two regular episodes leading up to and showing the six couples answer their ultimatums as well as a reunion that rattled me for DAYS when I first saw it. Catch up on past recaps, and read my recaps of episodes eight and nine below.
The Ultimatum: Queer Love Recap – Episode 8
I feel like we really ended on some emotionally devastating cliffhangers in episode seven, and crashing back into things here in episode eight feels…a little jarring? How much time has passed? How did we go from Dayna threatening to leave to Magan recommitting to her so fully???????!!!! Dayna’s influence is a bit unnerving! Anyway, let’s get into it.
Two Weeks Until Ultimatum Is Answered
Haley + Pilar
After their stressful balcony moment following Haley revealing she fell in love with Magan, Pilar is now worried that anything she does will only further push her away. She doesn’t want to tell Haley how to feel or project her own insecurities onto Haley.
And well, this episode basically made me sob straight out the gate, because everything Pilar is saying about how her behaviors and emotions have been impacted by her upbringing is so real. She did not get unconditional love from her family. She explains that the people who raised her are ashamed of her, and she doesn’t have a mom she can talk to about any of this.
Pilar doesn’t want Haley to just be with her because it’s all she has known for ten years, but she also believes in them as a couple. So do I tbh! I do think it is normal and natural for them to both crave other experiences outside of each other given that they’ve been together a decade and are only 29. I think Pilar wanted to experience something with Kyle, but when that was shut down she didn’t get the same kind of outside experience as Haley. I’m left wondering if nonmonogamy could work for them? And I say that as a deeply monogamous person! In any case, Pilar talking about her family makes me very sad. Losing Haley would mean losing the person who taught her real love in a way her family denied her.
Dayna + Magan
What a 180 these two have done!!!!! Magan apologizes for hurting Dayna, and Dayna wants to give this trial marriage everything so she can feel informed when she walks away from this experience. HELLO? I thought she was JUST wanting to go back to Michigan and/or have her mom come? Magan says she’s happy to be with Dayna and she is her home and comfort. WHAT???? I have whiplash with these two! I know people who have been in similar relationships where blowup fights were immediately followed by intense intimacy and closeness. IT IS A REALLY TROUBLESOME CYCLE.
Magan thinks she would not have had sex with Haley if the moment hadn’t happened where Dayna ignored her. WHAT? “It was a test and you failed,” Dayna says of the entire trial partner experience, and I am truly so confused. How does Haley suddenly have so much control and power here? Am I turning on Magan? Am I seeing her manipulated in real time? I can’t figure out what’s going on! Magan gently brings up the fact that Dayna was also sexual with Mel, which as we know Mel is denying, and Dayna downplays it by calling it kissing and a comfort thing, suggesting that what Magan did was different/”worse.” That balcony booty grab…that’s not how I personally comfort someone who is just my pal!
Marita + Ashley
These two who I think are fundamentally incompatible meet up with Ashley’s twin sister and regular sister. They seem close with Marita, which is cute. But again, I don’t think these two are meant to be together at all, and at this point I’m stressed out any time they’re on screen together!!! Ashley admits their first week back together was horrible. She’s still trying to figure out why it’s so hard for her to do these things Marita asks for. Her sisters are like you shouldn’t be together if you can’t get on the same page, and I agree!!!!!
Marie + Mel
Mel is still struggling to see herself in a long-term committed relationship, because she has never seen a happy married couple in her immediate life. No one has modeled that for her. I sympathize with the sentiment, but it’s almost like she completely absolves herself of any real agency or culpability in her own actions and decisions. Mel brings up the horrible relationship her uncle — who she lived with after her uncle died — was in. But Marie asks her if she thinks that’s how they’ll be.
The things that make Marie feel safe in a relationship, like trust and support, make Mel feel unsafe, Mel explains. Trusting and loving someone fully scares her. Okay, at a certain point I think Marie has to make a choice to walk away from this! Mel is essentially telling her she cannot be in a stable relationship. In fact, she says she doesn’t know if she wants safe and stable, because her life has always been chaotic. So…because she has only ever known dysfunction, she chooses dysfunction? GIRL, GET HELP!
10 Days Until Ultimatum Is Answered
Haley + Pilar
These two are going hard on trying to reconnect. They wake up to watch the sunrise, their first on the east coast. Pilar asks Haley what she needs, and Haley says she doesn’t feel prioritized by Pilar the way Magan prioritized her. (It’s a lot easier to make someone your priority during three weeks than after ten years together, but alas.) Haley says sometimes she tells Pilar she doesn’t want to do something and Pilar convinces her to do it anyway. Well, I do feel like we saw a bit of that in Pilar’s interactions with Kyle, too, so that tracks.
Pilar is trying not to take the confusion Haley is experiencing personally. I do think both of these two are trying to work through their issues in emotionally intelligent and mature ways.
Haley now brings up that while she and Pilar were out at the club, they ran into Magan and Dayna. Magan didn’t even look at Haley. So Magan did the thing she accused Dayna of doing?! Magan also told Haley they needed to cut all contact. Haley is confused, and I don’t blame her! They told each other they loved each other, and now Magan is cutting off contact, obviously in a attempt to appease Dayna.
Dayna + Magan
Well, these two are snuggling and telling each other they love each other, so I guess things are all good between them! I’m sick! Dayna tells Magan she has to get really intentional with Haley, and Magan tries to suggest she and Haley can be friends who just support each other, but Dayna shuts that down real quick and says that the relationship right now is not appropriate. Magan says maybe it just needs time, and Dayna shuts that down, too, saying it will take a lot of time if Magan wants to be with Dayna.
I don’t think Magan is completely innocent in the way the rest of this episode is about to go down, but I do feel like I’m so clearly watching someone be manipulated?!
Magan then brings up Haley ignoring her in the gym but then liking her photo, and Dayna says Haley is playing games. I really don’t think Haley is playing any games! Dayna says Magan is acting like she’s being the crazy one when really it’s Haley who is, and I think Dayna should get an Olympic gold medal in the sport of the SPIN.
Magan has gotten a lot of clarity. She doesn’t feel uncertain about any future possibility with Haley. Magan is fully back to Dayna. Well then!
Bridget + Kyle
It has become increasingly evident that the worst offense committed by these two is just being kind of boring. Kyle’s parents are back, and Bridget still wants to know what actual marriage adds to anything. Kyle never really seems to have a convincing answer for this. Kyle’s mom says it’s commitment and building a life together. Kyle’s dad doesn’t think she’s ready for marriage because of insecurity in her job and finances. Kyle says she isn’t ready to buy a house. Kyle’s mom points out Pilar was very mature and had a more secure profession, whereas Bridget and Kyle are two artists which makes life hard.
Well EXCUSE ME, I am a writer married to another writer, and our marriage is very strong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But yes life is hard lol she got me there, drag me to hell KYLE’S MOM.
But no really, Kyle and Bridget probably belong together. They just disagree about marriage as an institution.
Britney + AJ
Delightfully, these two are on a date at the same Gyu-Kaku my wife and I went on frequent dates to when we lived in Miami. I hope they get the s’mores. They do get the spicy shrimp, which is also a crucial order. Anyway, you’re probably not reading this to find out What To Order At Gyu-Kaku.
AJ is still scared Britney will wake up one day and know she can do better. Really the only problem here seems to be AJ’s insecurity. AJ, it’s just the risk you take when committing yourself to someone! Just take the plunge! Britney accurately points out that this is an AJ Problem, not something that Britney herself has made her feel. She sees AJ as her equal, and AJ is the one who does not and is taking that out on Britney. I think these two will probably make it out of here. AJ just needs to get over her insecurities. And Britney to her credit seems to have a pretty endless capacity of patience for that (well, besides the fact that she issued her an ultimatum I guess).
Marie + Mel
Mel shares she tried to text Dayna, and then Dayna called her and said she was uncomfortable. Mel wonders if it’s coming from Dayna herself or from Magan. Mel agrees to step back. Dayna and Magan are basically trying to do damage control and lock in with each other, icing everyone else out in the process.
Magan + Dayna
Magan is grilling and living in her delusional bubble where apparently she did not fall in love with another woman and is ready to be Dayna’s wife. Dayna is stressed about the prospect of talking to Mel, who she feels is going to have an attitude. Dayna thinks their trial partners probably feel betrayed. Yeah, probably!!!! Cutting off contract is crazy work!
Pilar + Haley
Pilar asks what the pros and cons of talking to Magan are, and Haley says she’s going to make a game day decision about talking to her. Let’s see how it goes down at……….
The Cocktail Party
Everyone agrees this is pretty weird. Marita asks Britney and AJ if Britney made oxtail yet, and she did. So everything between Britney and AJ seems good! Oxtail for wifey!
Let’s zero in on the central conflicts that play out here in two separate private conversations:
Dayna + Mel
Dayna says Mel is being weird toward her, and Mel doesn’t feel like she’s being any type of way. Dayna’s spin work is already at play. Mel expresses she felt she and Dayna were really similar and that they grew together. Mel says Dayna made her feel less crazy whereas Marie has made her feel crazy for four years. Mel brings up that they left things saying they would be friends no matter what.
Dayna says that has all changed by the fact that Magan brought up that the matching tattoos were such a betrayal, because she and Dayna had apparently had a conversation that if they made it out of the show they would get matching tattoos. Mel says Dayna didn’t tell her that, and Dayna claims she doesn’t remember the conversation with Magan. SPIN CITY USA!!! POPULATION: DAYNA!!!!
Dayna tells Mel not to talk to her the way she talks to other people and criticizes her for not being patient enough. She tells her to drop the act. “I know you ride for me, but I also know you ride for Magan,” Mel says. Dayna apologizes for not being able to be there for her right now. I feel like Dayna is playing Mel and Magan at the same time and trying to keep them both as options for her?
Dayna and Mel also end up talking about Magan/Haley. Mel asks Dayna if she trusts Haley, and Dayna says hell no. But what has Haley done, literally! Dayna thinks Pilar and Haley came to the show to leave each other. “Magan knows she got manipulated,” Dayna tells Mel. Excuse me…Magan got manipulated…by HALEY??????? DAYNA, LOOK IN THE MIRROR.
Magan + Haley
Haley doesn’t really want to talk but agrees to anyway. Magan tells Haley that when things ended between them, because of how far they went, Dayna was in a hurt place and she wanted to maximize her time with Dayna. Haley says the cold turkey no contact was jarring though, and fair! Magan wanted to set a boundary and asks that Haley respects her trial marriage.
But Magan treated Haley the exact way Magan said Dayna was treating her during the first trial marriage. She ignored her! That’s what set Magan off in the first place! Points are being made! Magan says it hurt her not to say hi but that she felt like she had to choose between Haley and Dayna and chose Dayna. So, here it’s clear Magan’s decisions for how to interact with Haley are being determined primarily by Dayna.
Haley says Magan’s actions don’t line up with her words and she feels like she got to know a completely different person than whoever this Magan is. Haley has been really honest with Pilar, and that’s true! She told her she fell in love with Magan! And we saw Magan also tell Dayna she fell in love with Haley, but now she’s backtracking. She says she had an authentic few weeks and doesn’t regret things but that she also made certain promises she shouldn’t have because she thought she was at a point of no return with Dayna. She says she loves Magan for everything they’ve gone through but that she’s not in love with her.
Magan says Haley is making her feel crazy, and Haley says she’s making HER feel crazy, and I gotta say I’m on Haley’s side here! Magan! We all saw you fall for Haley and say you were falling for her! I know you’re trying to lock it down with Dayna now, but backtracking is so foolish! There’s footage! Appease Dayna I guess, but we’re all watching! And judging tbh!
One thing’s for sure: I’m glad my invitation to this cocktail party got lost in the mail.
One Week Until Ultimatum Is Answered
Haley and Pilar are parasailing! Marita is making a vision board! AJ got Britney a s’mores station to remind her of their date together! I guess they did get the s’mores at Gyu-Kaku.
Haley + Pilar
Haley’s dad comes over for dinner with these two, and Haley tearfully shares with her dad that she and Magan fell in love with each other and that Magan is now backtracking the narrative. Her dad very kindly tells her it isn’t the worst thing ever to read a situation wrong. Pilar posits that perhaps Magan was using Haley to make Dayna jealous, and I honestly don’t think it was that calculating, but I do think Magan and Dayna are two people who HAVE to be in a relationship so they go all-in on whoever they see as their most viable option. Magan went all-in with Haley, but now shes’ going all-in on Dayna in a way that requires her to push Haley away.
Haley’s dad tells Pilar he’s here for her, too, and Pilar starts crying and so do I!!!! Pilar doesn’t have a dad to talk to about any of this, and Haley gets to be so open with hers. And he’s supportive of Pilar, too, and that’s just so sad and sweet! Pilar says she hasn’t been proud of herself for a long time but has learned to stick up with herself and be patient.
Magan + Dayna
It’s time for People Having Serious Conversations Under Blankets on the Couch, Magan says she talks to her mom about Dayna a lot and that her mom will say something like but one day you’re going to marry a guy and have kids, right? But today when Magan called and was talking about Dayna, she said everything but the part about the guy. Progress! I’m rooting for Magan to make progress with her family even if I’m not rooting for Magan and Dayna to work out!
Ashley + Marita
More couch time. Marita starts sobbing after telling Ashley again that there are so many things she’s not getting. I think she’s realizing it’s not going to work. She wants a relationship and love and romance and she doesn’t want to just feel like friends. I really struggle to understand these two. Ashley holds her while she sobs, and Marita says she doesn’t get why Ashley can’t do all these things for her. They’re so bad at communicating! I don’t even want them in couples therapy; I just want them both in individual therapy.
Haley + Pilar
Pilar checks in with Haley, who is grateful for what they have. Pilar realizes that when she takes herself out of it, they’re able to resolve things better. They’re both genuinely trying witheach other. Pilar says if she were on the outside — like us, as viewers — she’d think they were fucked. I don’t actually think that Pilar! Y’all are pretty chill compared to Ashley/Marita and Magan/Dayna AND Mel/Marie!
Pilar and Haley feel bad for Dayna, Haley saying she wonders if Magan is the real problem in that relationship. Counterpoint: I think they could both be a problem.
Pilar doesn’t want to leave this and feel she was a safe second option.
Trial Marriages Final Night
Marie + Mel
Marie and Mel are making meatballs and sauce together, apparently a Sunday tradition and recreation of their first date together. Mel doesn’t want to work; she wants to be a stay-at-home masc. But what about the FOOD TRUCK!!!!
Mel says what she thinks switches by the moment. Yeah girl, that’s a red flag! Marie says Mel should trust her when she says something is okay. She feels confident and sure of what she wants and feels. Marie, girl, you can’t change who Mel is though. And she has shown you who she is over and over and over.
Dayna + Magan
Though I am turning on her, Magan wins a small piece of me back by referencing the Fast & Furious film franchise’s conceptualization of chosen family. Magan says they both fucked up, and Dayna makes sure to reiterate that yeah but Magan fucked up WORSE. She says it’s not like Magan hooked up with a random girl at the club but rather built a connection with and fell in love with someone else, which is DIFFERENT AND BAD…even though it is baked into the premise of the reality show they not only both chose to do but that Dayna strong-armed Magan into following through with when she originally wanted to leave.
Dayna laments that Magan doesn’t seem to regret anything she did or think anything she did was wrong. I think she likes having this card to play. Any time the conversation turns to her actions, she pivots to talking about what Magan did and how she isn’t sure if she can get over it. Then don’t and leave! Do your little spins elsewhere! I’m honestly tired of the spins!
Next: Ultimatum Queer Love Season Two Recap Episode 9
Before you go! Autostraddle runs on the reader support of our AF+ Members. If this article meant something to you today — if it informed you or made you smile or feel seen, will you consider joining AF and supporting the people who make this queer media site possible?
Kayla Kumari Upadhyaya is the managing editor of Autostraddle and a lesbian writer of essays, fiction, and pop culture criticism living in Orlando. She is the former managing editor of TriQuarterly, and her short stories appear in McSweeney's Quarterly Concern, Joyland, Catapult, The Offing, The Rumpus, Cake Zine, and more. Some of her pop culture writing can be found at The A.V. Club, Vulture, The Cut, and others. When she is not writing, editing, or reading, she is probably playing tennis. You can follow her on Twitter or Instagram and learn more about her work on her website.
Kayla! I am DYING to read your reunion recap. Amazing work thus far…can you imagine if we got this kind of insight on the show from an actual queer host?! Dare to dream. Truly, I am reeling right now at the fact that there were engagements beyond Haley/Pilar and Britney/AJ…
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Oh gods, I didn’t know a reality television show could make me dry heave. I’m actually low key a little scared for Magan? Like, the oddest thing I see not mentioned anywhere is that she is not out to her very strict Lebanese parents but she quite literally went on a Netflix reality television show? Even in the best of the best situations there would still be a non-zero chance that somehow someone in her family found out that she was on it no? She just seems not very good at thinking things through and that reflects in her behaviour and her relationship with Dayna. And that’s not a criticism of her, it’s why I’m so worried. Going on this show was the worst possible idea for her in every way and it is very obvious that in her little bubble with Dayna it is Dayna spinning her way into making every and all decisions. I just hope that Magan can break away from Dayna, especially after seeing Dayna’s behaviour in the footage.
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I’m so stressed out I don’t know how I’m going to deal with the reunion
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SO ready for the reunion recap. This is bonkers!
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Marie!! Noooooooooooooo
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The situation with Dayna and Magan is coercive control and is miserable to watch. It kills me that no one really pulls Dayna up on her controlling, manipulative and mean-spirited behaviour. Seeing how relaxed and happy Magan was with Haley versus how brittle, defensive and closed off she is with Dayna is heartbreaking. Yes, Magan is an adult and has her autonomy but that autonomy is being very seriously impeded by Dayna and I do really see Magan as a victim in all this because she quite literally doesn’t know any better. Imagine, actually imagine, living in the Dayna spin world every single day. Imagine never getting to express your own emotions without Dayna telling you “well actually THIS is how you feel”. It would break you and it’s clearly broken something in Magan. If society/Netflix took emotional abuse as seriously as physical abuse these episodes would come with a fucking warning about how Dayna’s behaviour is not ok. I’m so upset they got engaged. I hope they never get married.
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Also Mel and Marie …..lorde….Marie is a chump and Mel is an even bigger chump. Marie was so desperate for a ring she accepted that weak ass proposal? From the world’s least reliable, chaos loving and dishonest person? Couldn’t be me….
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– All the times people in this show said: “The biggest decision of my life” – that would have been a bingo in my bingo game of this show. Or when people say it will change their lives forever. Maybe, I don’t know what their lives are like! But it is also possible that a wedding changes something for a couple of years until they get divorced and then the other person is not really a part of their lives anymore. I’m also confused that people said the decision about the trial wife would be the second biggest decision of their lives.
– Marita: You could also play bingo every time she says: “You are not giving me what I want.” I don’t see any introspection of herself, only that she demands so very much of her partner all the time. A relationship should be about giving and receiving, and she constantly demands to receive more and more and more. It is debatable whether it is possible to do/ be what/ who she wants in a partner, but these two are not a good fit. And I don’t recall that there was ever the question what Marita could do for Ashley? What Marita could change?
Given Ashley’s prior history with intimate partner violence, I believe I see all these little moments with Marita that are certainly not abuse but are like a pattern in many people who experienced violence – Ashley not prioritizing their own feelings; not standing up for herself; agreeing with Marita when it looks like she does not; swallowing her anger. Ashley looks so annoyed on the couch when Marita cries but she holds her anyway and says: “You are right, I should consider your feelings more.” It is all about Marita’s feelings! Does Marita care about Ashley’s feelings!!
Very happy Ashley walked away and did not propose.
– Hayley: “I thought Danya was the problem, and now I thing Magan is the problem” – Me: They’re both the problem! Danya and Magan! Very painful to watch any scene Danya is in and how she manages to spin everything according what she wants at the moment. I want better for Magan even though she is not innocent in this. Their fights remind me of Tiff and Mildred, the drama in the fight and then making up and everything is peachy until it’s high drama again. (Everything we saw before we learned that Mildred was arrested for intimate partner violence after the show.)
– Mel: I understand that if one grows up with chaos, imagining a life of stability does not seem to be in reach. But therapy exists! It is an option to change patterns that made sense in the past and are no longer serving you in the present (e.g. I don’t want safety). Please be accountable for your actions and do not just say “yeah, my childhood, this is me, the end.”
– Brtitney: “The ultimate ‘I love you’ is marrying me” – yeah, I have to disagree on that. I’m glad they worked it out, and I hope AJ will work on her insecurities on the long-run and stop wanting (for some part) for Britney to be the housewife. Issues like that don’t disappear with a proposal.
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thanks to adu priest for restoring my marriage within 24hrs with the power of his reunion love spell once again thank you.( priestadu@ gmail. com )
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thanks to adu priest for restoring my marriage within 24hrs with the power of his reunion love spell once again thank you.(priestadu @ gmail. com)
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oh my god I am so perplexed by Mel’s refusal to do some long-term consequence thinking and respect for her partner? like how could she ask Marie to marry her, when she knows Marie will see the footage of ALLLL the stuff she did and said with Dayna, including that very same day admitting that if she proposed it will only be for Marie and not because that’s something Mel herself wants?!?!!
also I am so sad for Marie’s seeming lack of self-worth and being willing to lower her standards and accept subpar treatment from a partner.
Hello and a happy Lez Out July to you all! This is No Filter, the place where I tell you all about what our favorite queer celebrities were up to this week, via Instagram! Let’s rock and roll!
Cynthia. I know you are a Capricorn, but come on now! Two Wicked movies, a new album, hosting the Tony’s AND she wrote a book? I think we have officially found the one other human who has the same 24 hours that Beyoncé does!
As a person who watched this “Girls Like Girls” music video when it dropped, this does feel like a fever dream 25 year old me created? But good for me!
Before you go! Autostraddle runs on the reader support of our AF+ Members. If this article meant something to you today — if it informed you or made you smile or feel seen, will you consider joining AF and supporting the people who make this queer media site possible?
Just wanter to add that Diane Guerrero from OITNB and Encanto appears to have hard launched her GF on insta!
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Tawny + Jasmin + alpacas <3 <3 <3
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there’s an old country song called “old dan tucker” but you’re neither old or named dan
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In other non-american news:
– Daria Kasatkina and Natalia Zabiiako got engaged (they have lots of online content on youtube)
– The EURO 25 has started. Today Denmark will play Sweden. Meaning Pernille Harder will play against her fiancee Magda Eriksson. There many other openly queer players btw.
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I just wish you would cover more news from around the world. Typically US-American are so self up-serve. Where not even talking about Europe here. Kasatkina is representing Australia now. Why instead of covering so called influencers bring us some news about accomplished athletes from around the world? 75% of the people you write about i have never heard about.
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Your comment is hilariously and ironically self-involved. Why should a US-based site focus more on international celebrities that you personally care about? How is your comment any less “self up-serve” than this post?
For all the jokes about Florida, the people who actually inhabit the state know its beauty. There’s a rich history in this state, not just in the buildings and communities that have been built over decades, but in the stunning natural landscapes that have always been there and, unfortunately, find themselves being regularly exploited and destroyed. To watch Sasha Wortzel’s feature documentary, River of Grass, is to experience a bit of the beauty and pain of existing in Florida surrounded by the Everglades.
Not to be mistaken with Kelly Reichardt’s only Floridian film of the same name, Wortzel’s River of Grass is a necessary document about the Everglades at this point in time anda personal reflection on what it means to connect with other communities for the greater good. By weaving together everything from archival material of the grasslands, Marjory Stoneman Douglas’ seminal text (The Everglades: River of Grass), Indigenous voices and activists Betty Osceola and Reverend Houston R. Cypress, and contemporary verité footage of prayer walks in the Everglades and around Lake Okeechobee, the film becomes a mirror of the vast scale of the Everglades themselves in our lives.
That it serves as a personal memoir, educational text, and call to action all at once is what makes River of Grass feel essential in a time when everything in Florida feels fraught with danger. As a fellow queer Floridian watching the film — as well as Wortzel’s past work like How to Carry Water, This Is Not An Address, and Happy Birthday Marsha (co-directed with Tourmaline) — I couldn’t help but get swept away by it. I found myself thinking a lot about the way so many communities in South Florida intersect and adapt. Coming up just before a screening at Frameline, Sasha and I sat down to talk about the film, the region’s history and politics, and the way queerness and nature intersect.
Juan: I feel like it’s a very Floridian thing to just grow up with the Everglades as something that’s always there, for airboat rides and swamp walks, but not something you’re connected with in any real capacity. What was your experience with it growing up?
Sasha: Like most Floridians, I grew up knowing that the Everglades existed and was there, yet I wasn’t necessarily spending a lot of time in the Everglades. My earliest memories are driving from the West Coast to the East Coast through them and I think that’s a common way that many Floridians experience this vast region of wetlands that our water comes from: as a place to pass through to get from one coast to the other. I think many Floridians also don’t understand what they are, might even find them scary and intimidating. Some people look and say “what’s there?” It seems like nothing’s there and though I did grow up having a pretty strong relationship with the environment – being on the water, being in coastal mangroves, kayaking, and I was like a junior naturalist – but I didn’t understand how my more immediate ecosystem that I grew up in was a part of this larger, vast interconnected system that is the Everglades. That’s something I really had to seek out on my own.
Juan: Yeah, Floridian schools don’t really educate you on this. There’s not enough weight placed on how integral the Everglades is.
Sasha: It was very much a thing of the 90s where our education around the environment was not stressing the interconnectedness of things and simply focused on teaching us to turn off the lights, recycle, and plant a tree on Earth Day. With that, you’ve done your part and we still see that today. The responsibility is often placed on the individual rather than on larger systems or corporations that are actually the culprit in extracting, polluting, and destroying our wetlands and natural wild spaces.
Juan: And I think your film speaks to that by actively involving various communities who are impacted and exist with the Everglades. Not to jump into the political immediacy of it, but I do wonder: do you consider your film something of a call to action, particularly in informing people about how much the Everglades impacts us?
Sasha: I believe my film is an invitation to learn more and to become engaged with the environment and educated in how interconnected everything is. I’m happy if it feels like a call to action too; I think it is in essence, with Betty’s last lines in the film [“Nature will always win in the end. You have to decide if you’re going to be there as a part of that win, and, if you don’t, she’s going to win without you.”] More than anything, I think the experience of making the film, for me, was sort of like getting to know a relative who’s always been there in a much deeper, more intimate, way.
Juan: The film kicks off with you dreaming about Marjory Stoneman Douglas and navigating the impact of hurricanes, so that makes sense. Were those the actual triggers that kicked off the creation of River of Grass?
Sasha: I was thinking about how, in my lifetime, I had seen many of our wetlands and wild spaces fundamentally change or disappear altogether. I was watching more frequent and intense storms and hurricanes, noticing that our water quality was really declining, and that, on both coasts, we were experiencing forms of harmful algal blooms. Red tides and green algae that were sucking the oxygen out of the water, causing these mass fish killings, and giving people health problems. I was feeling overwhelmed by it all, devastated and sad, and then realized that I didn’t quite understand why. I knew that it had something to do with the Everglades’ water system, and that our temperatures (in and out of the water) are rising, but I wanted to unpack that and understand it better for myself in order to process some of my grief and understand my place and what action I could take.
I started by picking up Marjory Stoneman Douglas’ book because, even today, it’s still considered one of the essential resource guides to the Everglades and the first non-fiction study of the Everglades. I’d also applied to Artists in Residence in Everglades (AIRIE) and arrived just after Hurricane Irma – there were tons of trees and phone lines down and the water levels were much higher than usual for that time of year – so, of course, hurricanes were on my mind. I spent that month reading Douglas’ book and using it to create a sort of roadmap of some of the stories, the sites, and the themes I might explore in the film, as well as reaching out to people who were removing pythons or riding around with rangers by boat taking water samples.
I met Houston Cypress at the Marjory Stoneman Douglas Archives while doing some research after having written them prior to coming to the residency, knowing that one could not make a film about the Everglades without engaging Indigenous voices, and it was also at that time that I met Betty Osceola at Buffalo Tiger Air Boats. I was telling her what I was imagining and she said, “Hang on a second,” went and put gasoline in her airboat, and said “get on.” I went on a long ride with her and her late husband Jimmy and we walked and talked about a prayer walk she was organizing to walk the entire circumference of Lake Okeechobee. She invited me to join her, and so I did.
Juan: That is such a massive endeavor, but it sounds magnificent.
Sasha: From there, I just realized that it was going to be a film that reimagines Douglas’ book; her words in it felt very prescient and relevant, and yet it stopped in 1947. So much has followed that up to the present, so I wanted to weave her words alongside these portraits of what’s happening now. And that’s kind of how the project began, but then another hurricane came during the making of this and really destroyed where I’m from. Douglas did come to me in a dream during this time, telling me that she had more to say and felt she’d been forgotten. I felt that she wanted a direct address with the audience, not just through her book, and it launched me into doing more archival research and uncovering interviews with her where I was moved by her presence and bluntness.
She was so direct, so funny, so unapologetic, and a lot of what she said was extremely resonant with what’s happening now. She needed to be part of the story and all these elements needed some kind of grounding and a perspective, some kind of glue, and that had to be me. I realized it was also my story, but Douglas prompted me to pursue this project.
Juan: And you bring up trying to piece it all together, but I’m so interested in how you approached something as grand as the Everglades. There’s science, there’s spirituality, there’s history, there’s politics – obviously you’re grounding it in yourself, but how do you try to parse all of it down into something that isn’t just an info dump?
Sasha: It’s not an easy task and also why this was a project that took many years to make. I naively didn’t realize the education it would require of me; I’d need to learn Indigenous history, hydrology, legal frameworks around the Everglades, there’s just so many layers. Once I started meeting and engaging with people on the ground who call this region home, that would lead me to another story and another. It was through the making of this project that I became connected with the Stop the Burn campaign [which aims to eliminate the practice of pre-harvest sugarcane burning in the Everglades] and learned about that. It really took a lot of time and refining, and it was through the editing process that it became clear what would remain and what might be cast out to create something that could tell a very expansive story but wasn’t bogged down in too much detail. I hope people learn a lot about this place through watching, but I wanted it to feel more like you were sort of flowing with the water, digesting and absorbing and learning along the way.
Juan: That makes a lot of sense in how meditative the doc is. It forces you to become one with the nature of the Everglades. Your last short film, How to Carry Water, also had this vibe that you’re just trying to exist in the same space as your subjects. Do you always try to find that connection with them in some capacity?
Sasha: I tend to work on projects where I’m engaging with places and communities that I’m somehow already embedded in on some level. It’s been really important for me to think about landscape not just as background but as a character and to foreground it and really sit with and film with the same kind of dignity and respect that I give to the people that I film. I spent a lot of time in these different ecosystems that are collectively part of the Everglades with J. Bennett, the director of photography.
A really important part of the process for me is also relationship building. During the making of the film, Betty Osceola walked Lake Okeechobee twice. There were two separate prayer walks and I filmed one of them and went on another from start to finish without my camera. I think it was about 120 miles around the lake, mostly in silence. That sort of intention and process is hopefully embedded in the feeling of the film.
Juan: How much of those prayer walks and that journey is just walking and experiencing nature as opposed to moments where people stop and engage with each other?
Sasha: When you’re walking in pairs in a single file line through the Everglades, you’re meant to be silent and listen and pray, to look and witness the environment and connect with it. There’s a rhythm to these moments where you’re moving through the landscape and looking in a way that I think we often don’t look, especially while you’re on foot because of the pace and scale of things. In breaks, Betty would share a story or some kind of knowledge, ones that have been passed down from her ancestors about the ways the land looked when they were there or specific plants. Sometimes there’s breaks where we’re all just hanging out and laughing, eating snacks and enjoying being out there with each other.
It’s about community building when you’re out there with people from all walks of life. Over the course of filming, I watched the prayer walks really grow. Of course, Lake Okeechobee is a particularly long seven-day walk, so not everyone’s going to be able to participate in the full walk due to its intensity. But something really beautiful that I felt over the course of the film was the number of people participating in these walks, these spiritual actions, and the Everglades growing and finding intersections between these community members. So Donna and her daughter, I’d been out with them removing pythons, and then a few months later, we were on this walk together. It was interesting to see not only the interconnectedness of the different ecosystems that make up the Everglades, but the people themselves, and I wanted the structure of the film to reflect that as well.
One of the teachings that Betty spoke about during the making of the film was this Miccosukee teaching of land as ancestor, with trees and animals that are all our relatives. And in Douglas’ book, she very intentionally uses the pronoun “they” to describe the Everglades – this non-binary, plural pronoun – and I was really moved by these two ideas.
Juan: That makes a lot of sense to me because the film kind of ebbs and flows through all these different facets of community and ecosystem. I actually love that you bring up the non-binary pronoun for the Everglades because I’m wondering: How did your own queerness and your past work that looks at queer bodies in natural (and unnatural) spaces influence this film?
Sasha: I mean, how could it not? It’s just one of the lenses through which I experience and engage with the world, and the idea of the collective, the “they”, this sort of expansiveness of gender and community with plants, animals, and the unknown, like our ancestors and spirits. I think there are moments that do feel more explicitly queer in the film, like Houston walking through this beautiful cypress dome and saying that chosen family is a survival strategy.
Even something like Marjory being asked by a journalist why she never remarried. Would a journalist ever ask a man that? Of course not. I was moved by her answer being that she couldn’t be bothered with a man and was busy. Marjory may not have been queer, yet the way she lived her life defied a lot of prescribed gender roles. She did not marry, she did not have kids, and she wasn’t focused on this nuclear family unit because her family was the Everglades, her friends, her writing, and her art, the things she devoted her time to.
Something that really informed my approach to this project and How to Carry Water was thinking about the way in which queer bodies and trans bodies, like the wetlands, defy or refuse tidy binary categories. Wetlands are both land and water; the Everglades are sometimes dry as a bone and you can walk across and, other times, it’s flooded. It’s not any one thing, and there’s an interesting connection too in the way that wetlands have been demonized, extracted, drained, and reengineered that mirrors what we see happening in dominant culture with violent transphobic narratives.
Juan: So many people outside of these lived experiences and natural bodies are trying to force their will onto them, but you can’t change or stop what exists.
Sasha: Yeah, I think the same violent forces that deem a trans body, or a disabled body, or a fat body, unworthy or disposable in this world are the same forces that deem a swamp as unworthy or something we don’t need. And that is intimately connected to all kinds of violence and settler colonialism here in the United States and with what we’re seeing happening abroad.
Juan: And your film is explicitly in conversation with the fact that the world is comfortable destroying these things. Obviously your work is political – even thinking back to something like This is an Address, which features Sylvia Rivera – because you can’t make work like this without it being political, but what do you hope for with a film like River of Grass? Are you hoping for it to spark conversations about gentrification or destruction or faulty politics in Florida that make nothing last here?
Sasha: That’s the very story of Florida: Build as fast as you can before things sink or build and make as much money as you can before the next hurricane.
Juan: Does it feel like you ended up capturing the Everglades before it’s too late?
Sasha: There is an awareness that I am trying to tell a story that covers such a wide span of time and that connects the past to the present. To make this film is to create a document of a specific time and place because the way things look and feel are constantly changing. I hope the film is an invitation to become more connected to our environment and to each other, to our larger collective movements. Something that’s important to me with this film – that’s maybe not said explicitly but hopefully embedded in the architecture – is that climate justice is very intersectional. It cuts across race, class, gender, and sexuality, and connects to everything. Finding these interconnections between our movements and coalition building is really the way forward.
We are stronger together when we are thinking about how we can all get free and how our liberation is connected to our neighbors. We also need to listen to and support Indigenous voices and center those who are most impacted in our movements. Those are the experts and recognizing and dismantling these ongoing legacies of settler colonialism is central to the environmental justice movement. Those are some of the many things I’ve learned and taken away from the process of making this film. I started in this place of devastation and grief, feeling overwhelmed and unsure of what to do, and now I have all these answers and solutions. Through the making of the film, through learning our history and who came before, and by connecting with a broader coalition of neighbors in the region, I now feel more hope.
Before you go! Autostraddle runs on the reader support of our AF+ Members. If this article meant something to you today — if it informed you or made you smile or feel seen, will you consider joining AF and supporting the people who make this queer media site possible?
“I hope people learn a lot about this place through watching, but I wanted it to feel more like you were sort of flowing with the water, digesting and absorbing and learning along the way.”
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I’m definitely going to watch this film now. I love the Everglades.
Before you go! Autostraddle runs on the reader support of our AF+ Members. If this article meant something to you today — if it informed you or made you smile or feel seen, will you consider joining AF and supporting the people who make this queer media site possible?
June was of course a very busy month for LGBTQ+ book releases, but we still have a decent amount of new queer and trans books coming your way in July, too! Because it turns out gay people still exist after Pride month! Who knew! Below, find our top picks for the month, followed by the rest of our mostly anticipated queer books for July 2025. And feel free to shoutout additional books in the comments!
Autostraddle’s Top Most Anticipated LGBTQ Books for July 2025
Hilarious in its excavations of internet fame and the content-ification of relationships, Hot Girls with Balls follows Six and Green, two late-twenties Asian trans women on rival teams in the men’s pro indoor volleyball league. The influencer athletes have a massive platform where they document their long-distance relationship and often disagree about how much to make public and keep private. It’s a great “internet novel” and specifically a queer internet novel, so it’s extremely up my alley and I think if you get your book recommendations from Autostraddle dot com, it’ll be up yours, too.
Nothing bonds two girls quite like burying a body in the woods. Chloe Harper and Mel Tillman end up in a secret relationship after they spend a night in the woods burying the body of teen drug dealer Toby Dunne on Chloe’s 16th birthday. Six years later, Chloe has left town for the Canadian wilderness and Mel is working as a rural PI. Danger resurfaces from their past and brings the two women back together again.
The Other Wife, by Jackie Thomas-Kennedy (July 15, Literary Fiction)
Zuzu feels like an outsider growing up biracial in her small, rural town, but she finds deep friendship in her best friend Cash, whom she longs for but never pursues outright romance with. Now nearing her forties, she’s married to her wife Agnes while still yearning for Cash, who she reconnects with when a sudden loss brings her back to her hometown.
House of Beth by Kerry Cullen (July 15, Literary Fiction)
This twisty novel centers bisexual literary agency assistant Cassie Jackson, who flees Manhattan for her New Jersey hometown following the gruesome death of her boss, which also causes her harm OCD to flare up. There, she reconnects with her high school best friend Eli, who is a widowed father of two, and Cassie slides easily into his life as a new stepmother. But things get a little…messy…when the ghost of Eli’s dead homemaker wife Beth starts haunting the woods surrounding her home.
Subterrane, by Valérie Bah (July 17, Speculative Fiction)
Humor and political commentary collide in this kaleidoscopic work of speculative fiction featuring a chorus of Black and queer voices set in the fictional world of New Stockholm, a North American metropolis defined by class stratification. Zeynab is making a government-funded abstract documentary about the creatives and anti-capitalists of one of New Stockholm’s polluted and industrial neighborhoods, one of the last areas where housing is affordable.
The author of the outstanding Vagabonds! is back with another gorgeous literary exploration of queer life, family, friendship, desire in Nigeria. Featuring more than two dozen characters across generations and scattered throughout Lagos, it’s simultaneously sprawling and intimate.
A young aspiring writer moves to Los Angeles while grieving her dead brother and ends up in a relationship with a famous older radio host named Reid Steinman, beloved by her father and late brother. But things take an interesting turn when she ends up having an affair with his adult daughter Maddie.
Simplicity, by Mattie Lubchansky (July 29, Sci-Fi, Graphic Novel)
Whether you know her from her brilliant horror graphic novel Boys Weekend or just from her hilarious comics online, Mattie Lubchansky is a shining voice with a signature style in the queer and trans graphic narrative space, and you’re not going to want to miss her latest, an immersive and speculative story about Lucius Pasternak, who is hired by the Museum of the Former State of New York in 2081 to study a group called The Spiritual Association of Peers from the 1970s that took over a summer camp in the Catskills and called it Simplicity. Strangeness ensues. Expect sharp socio-political commentary wrapped up in eerie dystopian-horror imagery. And humor of course!
Lonely Crowds, by Stephanie Wambugu (July 29, Literary Fiction)
Set in the early-90s art world of NYC, this novel is about two friends: Ruth and Maria. Ruth is an only child of immigrants to New England attending a Catholic girl’s school on a scholarship, and Maria is an orphan whose Panamanian mother died by suicide and is being raised by her aunt and also on a scholarship to the school. They strike up an intense friendship. Ruth follows charming and free Maria, who embraces her sexuality and drive for an art career, to college and then NYC, where ambition and competition threaten their friendship. Toxic friendship novel, yes PLEASE!
And now enjoy the rest of our most anticipated LGBTQ books for July 2025!
A geeky science-lover and a prophesied Chosen One’s paths collide, and they start to fall for each other, but there’s one problem: They come from literally different universes. Second dates become a lot more complicated when they require a portal. For readers of sapphic cozy YA fantasy!
A suspenseful, gothic work of historical fiction, The Original follows Grace, who has predilections for art, forgery, and other girls. She’s saving up money in hopes of one day leaving her family for far away, but a letter from a long-presumed dead cousin staking potential claim in the family’s wealth complicates matters for Grace and the other members of her Oxfordshire estate.
This is the third book in the Her Majesty’s Royal Coven trilogy. Five witches — Niamh, Ciara, Leonie, Elle and Theo — are chosen by Lucifer the demon of desire to fulfill a dark prophecy. Uh oh.
Lacrimosa Arriscane AKA Lark is expelled from her boarding school and finds her family in financial ruin, so she accepts a marriage of convenience to a chthonic god, as one does. She becomes entangled in a sibling love triangle with a brother and sister. Romantic folk horror that promises a polyamorous bisexual romance!
This young adult sapphic rom-com follows Beau Carl, who is trying to figure out if Maia Moon, the popular girl she has been secretly hooking up with, really likes her. At the last big party before prom, Beau sees Maia about to kiss Charm Montgomery, who is thrilled that the vibes she has been picking up on in her tutoring sessions with Maia haven’t just been in her head. But then Beau interrupts the kiss, Maia accepts a promposal from her shitty boyfriend, and both Beau and Charm are left bereft. Beau and Charm team up to enact their revenge, but they start slipping into something sweeter along the way.
This is the first book in a fantasy trilogy inspired by Southwest Asian mythology. Ghouls, deadly monsters, and characters with dubious morals clash in a dynastic tale of romance, fantasy, and adventure.
The year is 2073, and agronomist Dr. Alex Cole moves to the first lunar colony where she falls in love. If you’re both a space nerd and a romance lover, the premise here sounds like it’ll be just for you. There’s also significant themes of climate horror and dystopia.
Whether you love lesbian poetry or lesbian literary history, you’re gonna want to get your hands on this biography of May Swenson, which pulls from her unpublished diaries as well as letters to people like fellow lesbian poet Elizabeth Bishop. The 20th century was such a fascinating time for lesbian poets, and this book particularly focuses on Swenson’s life from 1936 to 1959, during which she came of age and into her poetic voice in NYC.
Putafeminista, by Monique Prada, translated and edited by Amanda De Lisio (Nonfiction)
Activist and sex worker Monique Prada pens a work of sex-worker-centric feminism from Brazil, centering an anti-colonial and anti-whorephobia working women’s movement.
This is a revised re-release of Hanson’s collection, which features a new introduction and more than a dozen new weather-centric poems.
Sunburn, by Chloe Michelle Howarth (Literary Fiction)
This gorgeous novel about two girls falling in love in small-town Ireland in the 1990s is finally getting a U.S. publication after capturing hearts in the UK in 2023.
This novel follows six different girls who have been locked away in the 1968 nun-run institution Good Shepherd for the mere facts of being pregnant, gay, or otherwise difficult.
Nova Marwood has long been haunted by the tragedy of her missing father hiker but has become accustomed to pretending she’s okay. She’s also very good at pretending she doesn’t have a crush on the girl she pretends to hate. Nova ends up accidentally laying a hex on said faux-nemesis.
July is disability pride month, and this book features a disabled protagonist navigating a dystopian world of climate crisis and medical debt, set in a near-future Seattle ravaged by storms and a virus. Healthcare can only be earned by logging hours in the pharmaceutical factories run by society’s resident evil corporation Aegis Corp.
Hello history heads! Here is the clandestine history of a residence for American women artists in Paris from 1893 to 1914. The American Girls’ Club in Paris opened in 1893 and housed a generation of artist and activist expatriate American women during Belle Époque Paris. This meticulously researched book looks at the community that formed there and the legacy of its women.
Get it Out offers an inclusive study of the hysterectomy and includes medical history as well as qualitative data gathered from 100 participants, including trans men and nonbinary people in addition to cis women. It looks at how gender and race impact access to reproductive healthcare and the pushback people seeking hysterectomies often receive.
Taste the Love, by Karelia Stetz-Waters and Fay Stetz-Waters (Romance)
A sapphic rom-com for foodies, Taste the Love centers eco-chef Alice Sullivan and social media and food truck sensation Kia, who go from complicated culinary school rivals to…a public fake marriage in an attempt to save both their careers.
I had a lot of fun with Khaw’s Nothing But Blackened Teeth, and the author is back with a dark academia novel about the Hellebore Technical Institute for the Gifted, a prestigious academy for the “dangerously powerful,” including anti-christs, ragnaroks, world-eaters, and apocalypse-makers. In other words: school from hell.
This is a sequel to Saints of Storm and Sorrow and continues the saga’s exploration of Filipino-inspired fantasy, featuring magic, pirates, moon-eating dragons, and sapphic romance.
A group of women and nonbinary artists and writers come together to remember the legacy of Sinead O’Connor in this anthology.
Evil-ishby Kennedy Tarrell (YA Fantasy Graphic Novel)
Hawthorne Vandercast wants to join the Brigade of Shade and leave behind their life as a potions barista. But their pursuit of villainy proves more complicated than they hoped.
A space fantasy that combines Arthurian myth and the history of North Atlantic fisheries — two things I bet you didn’t think could combine to compelling effect, but here we are! For readers of queer sci-fi/fantasy tales.
So What If I’m a Puta, by Amara Moira, edited by Amanda de Lisio, and translaed by Bruna Dantas Lobato (Essay Collection)
This essay collection from Feminist Press touches on transition, safe sex, desire, whorephobia, consent, and the history and current contexts of Brazil’s violence against trans women.
A slow-burn romantasy with climate dystopia and dark academia vibes, this novel centers Kiana Strade, who has a special talent for collecting memories but refuses her post leading the temple she’s supposed to and instead does research for the Museum of Human Memory.
A Midwestern fantasy tale, this novel features a waystation for the dead on the shores of Lake Michigan in Chicago. Every night, the dead travel through the city to this waystation, guided by the titular lighthouse, where they must reckon with their lives before moving on into the great beyond, ushered by the ferryman of the dead. That ferryman’s daughter Nera notices one night that something is afoot. A living girl named Charlie has somehow boarded the boat looking for someone she has lost.
Two teens working at a donut shop for the summer band together to save it and fall in love along the way in this YA debut.
Before you go! Autostraddle runs on the reader support of our AF+ Members. If this article meant something to you today — if it informed you or made you smile or feel seen, will you consider joining AF and supporting the people who make this queer media site possible?
Kayla Kumari Upadhyaya is the managing editor of Autostraddle and a lesbian writer of essays, fiction, and pop culture criticism living in Orlando. She is the former managing editor of TriQuarterly, and her short stories appear in McSweeney's Quarterly Concern, Joyland, Catapult, The Offing, The Rumpus, Cake Zine, and more. Some of her pop culture writing can be found at The A.V. Club, Vulture, The Cut, and others. When she is not writing, editing, or reading, she is probably playing tennis. You can follow her on Twitter or Instagram and learn more about her work on her website.
Riese is the 43-year-old Co-Founder of Autostraddle.com as well as an award-winning writer, video-maker, LGBTQ+ Marketing consultant and aspiring cyber-performance artist who grew up in Michigan, lost her mind in New York and now lives in Los Angeles. Her work has appeared in nine books, magazines including Marie Claire and Curve, and all over the web including Nylon, Queerty, Nerve, Bitch, Emily Books and Jezebel. She had a very popular personal blog once upon a time, and then she recapped The L Word, and then she had the idea to make this place, and now here we all are! In 2016, she was nominated for a GLAAD Award for Outstanding Digital Journalism. She's Jewish. Follow her on twitter and instagram.
OH WOWW, thank you so much for including “The Club” on your awesome list! So, longtime Autostraddle reader, first-time commenter here– suffice to say that I was thrilled to see my book listed and I’m so grateful. (Kayla, I was especially excited to see you as one of the authors here… your coverage of “Yellowjackets” has been 100% critical to my viewership!). Thank you, thank you.
Now that Pride Month has wrapped up we’re moving on to the very thick of summer, I wonder what will happen on the television~ If you care to wonder with me, let us gaze together into what is in store for the lesbian, bisexual, gay and trans characters on various streaming networks this month?
Netflix July 2025 in Gay
The Old Guard 2 (2025) // July 2
Andy’s (Charlize Theron) ex (as per its source material), long-lost immortal Quỳnh, will be returning to the fold as Andy and her team faces a new threat endangering their existence. Unclear if the nature of their relationship will be mentioned as most coverage of the film has focused on its (honestly quite notable) gay male couple, Joe and Nicky. Gayety has celebrated the sequel as boasting “a cast that celebrates diversity on every level — from race and nationality to gender and sexuality.”
Too Much // Season One // July 10
Lena Dunham’s new comedy for Netflix stars Hacks scene-stealer and extremely gay comic Megan Stalter as Jessica, a heartbroken New Yorker who moves to London to find herself new love story. Janicza Bravo plays Kim, her co-worker harboring a fresh new queer crush on her boss’s effortlessly cool assistant, Josie (Daisy Bevan). Also there’s a hairless dog named Astrid, and Naomi Watts, and lots of gay people and cocaine and Rita Wilson plays Jessica’s Mom and of course Andrew Ranells pops up too.
The Sandman: Season 2 // Volume 1 July 3 + V2 July 24 + V3 July 31
The fist season of The Sandman was widely praised for its queerness, including supernatural detective Johanna Constantine (Jenna Coleman) and non-binary sibling character Desire (Mason Alexander Park). A Gay Times piece on The Sandman quoted a tweet that observed, “When I saw a TikTok saying every character in Sandman is queer I thought they were exaggerating a bit but it really is every one of them huh.” This season we’ll be traveling to the underworld of Hades, Ancient Greece, Elizabethan England, and the French Revolution. We will encounter demons, fairies, and gods. Anyhow, Neil Gaiman is a monster, but I’m still telling you about this show because the hundreds of people involved in making it should not be punished for his behavior.
Cora Bora (2023) // July 17
Megan Stalter is a struggling LA musician in an open relationship with her Portland girlfriend who returns home when her career hits a roadblock only to find her girlfriend has begun seriously dating someone new. “I love an indie about a messy bisexual,” wrote Drew. “Throw in good songs and a lovely third act, and I can forgive some imperfections. Like its protagonist, Cora Bora is at first off-putting, but in the end it proves lovable.”
The Hunting Wives: Season One // July 21
This series has bounced around a bit, finally landing on Netflix from Starz, based on May Cobb’s obstensibly heterosexual but extremely homoerotic novel about Sophie, who leaves her enviable career in Chicago to settle down with her husband and son in a small Texas town and quickly becomes obsessed with Margot Banks, an alluring socialite part of the Hunting Wives elite clique, a mysterious world of dangerous parties and late-night target practice.
Hightown (Seasons 1-3) // July 23
The Straz series set in Cape Cod stars Monica Raymund as a messy bisexual National Marine Fisheries Service Agent.
Hulu’s July 2025 Queer Stuff
Such Brave Girls // Season Two // July 2 Such Brave Girls is a riotous, disgusting, in-your-face comedy about a dysfunctional family (two sisters and a single mom, all of them varying degrees of delulu) trying and often failing to get their shit together. Josie, the center of it all, is gay, and the first season turned out surprisingly queer even beyond that. I was prepared to wait 2-3 years for the second season of this show so imagine my delight that it’s coming now. Please we beg of you catch up on Season One and watch this you will love it I promise!!! Season Two will find them continuing their impossible quest for a better life, yearning to escape the reality of their cramped little home.
Dope Girls // Season One // July 28
Set just after World War I, this six-part historical BBC drama takes place in London in 1918 and “depicts in visceral, delicious detail the birth of the modern nightlife industry guided and gilded by hard fought female endeavor.” There are sexy girls in provocative dresses and lots of GRIT and also some lesbianing does occur! Having already premiered overseas, The Guardian wrote of it, “Its ambition is entertaining, and it is hard to get bored, especially when the crime really gets going.”
HBO Max July 2025 LGBTQ+
Carol (2015) // July 1
I believe we are all at this point familiar with Carol!
Dear Ms.: A Revolution in Print (2025) // July 2
This three-part documentary promises to chronicle “the groundbreaking articles that helped define and further the discourse, showcasing the bold cover stories that dared to put abortion, home life, workplace issues, and sexual politics front and center, bringing about new language in their dissection of the gender battleground.” Promised queers include Lindsy Van Gelder, Annie Sprinkle And Veronica Vera.
Peacock’s Queer July 2025
Tár (2023) // July 27
Lydia Tár is an accomplished renowned lesbian conductor whose world begins spiraling out of control when she is accused of misconduct. Cate Blanchett stars as Lydia Tar and everybody disagreed about whether or not it was excellent or terrible.
Twisted Metal: Season 2 Premiere // July 31 Valerie adored the first season of Twisted Metal, in which Stephanie Beatriz played Quiet, a character who the actor and Valerie read as bisexual even if it may not be super obvious to all. John and Quiet are entering a deadly demolition derby known as the Twisted Metal tournament, hosted by the elusive Calypso, in a season full of killer clowns, vigilante rivals, and long-lost family drama.
Apple TV+ July 2025
Acapulco: Season 4 Premiere // July 23
In the present day, Máximo is working tirelessly to restore Las Colinas to its former glory in anticipation of the grand re-opening, and in the 1986 storyline, a young Máximo fights to ensure his property’s future after a young competitor wins the number one spot on a coveted list. Máximo’s sister, lesbian Sara Gallardo Ramos, also returns, trying to help her brother take a more political approach to challenging the status quo at Las Colinas.
Before you go! Autostraddle runs on the reader support of our AF+ Members. If this article meant something to you today — if it informed you or made you smile or feel seen, will you consider joining AF and supporting the people who make this queer media site possible?
Riese is the 43-year-old Co-Founder of Autostraddle.com as well as an award-winning writer, video-maker, LGBTQ+ Marketing consultant and aspiring cyber-performance artist who grew up in Michigan, lost her mind in New York and now lives in Los Angeles. Her work has appeared in nine books, magazines including Marie Claire and Curve, and all over the web including Nylon, Queerty, Nerve, Bitch, Emily Books and Jezebel. She had a very popular personal blog once upon a time, and then she recapped The L Word, and then she had the idea to make this place, and now here we all are! In 2016, she was nominated for a GLAAD Award for Outstanding Digital Journalism. She's Jewish. Follow her on twitter and instagram.
Twisted Metal is such a fun show! If every season finale has as good a needle drop moment as the first, I will continue to recommend it.
As a wrestling fan it’s also fun knowing Samoa Joe is the body for Sweet Tooth (someone else is the voice).
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Absurdly excited for the return of Such Brave Girls. Watching it really is a full body experience, like this is not cringe comedy, it is almost visceral shock at where they go sometimes.
And yes obvs I want Josie to be able to have gay feelings without running away, but weirdly I might be rooting most for her sister, maybe the most lovable deranged stalker on TV?!?!!
I’m a lesbian in my 30s who has been single for 5 years and not for lack of trying. And I mean that. I’ve gone on dozens of first dates through dating apps, I’ve collected many random hobbies over the years by taking classes to meet people, I attend things on my own all the time, and even recently I tried speed dating for the first time. Still, I haven’t had even the glimmer of a relationship. Haven’t even so much as kissed someone in a few years.
And I’m a total catch! I have a great job, I own my house, I’m smart, cute, and don’t speak to any of my exes! I even live in an area that is relatively queer. Yet, I’m starting to become convinced that it’ll never happen for me.
In some ways it feels like I’m waiting for the next part of my life to begin with a partner. I bought a house last year after putting it off because I had been waiting for someone to do it with and realized that I may be waiting forever. But it was an incredibly lonely experience. And I’ve had so many experiences over the last few years that I always pictured myself sharing with a partner.
If I had been sitting on my couch for the last 5 years without trying, I would understand. It’s much more painful to feel like I’ve been doing all the “right” things to try to meet someone and still come up short. Everyone in my life says I’m wonderful and to “put myself out there” but that doesn’t seem to matter. And as time passes, it becomes more difficult to hold onto the belief that I am worthy of love and will find it.
I guess my questions are: Where do I go from here? How do I keep trying without losing hope? Should I be doing anything differently?
A:
This is the thing that is most frustrating about dating imo! You can literally have everything going for you and also be truly putting yourself out there, and you can still struggle to find someone to actually date. It sucks! I have many friends spanning ages, locations, and sexualities for whom this exact situation you’ve described is true. You’re single, but you’re not alone. I believe you when you say you’re a catch! Being a homeowner ALONE should qualify you for a long line of prospective girlfriends. Owning a home?! In THIS economy?!?!! I’m impressed!
While your friends’ advice to put yourself out there is coming from a good place and indeed is the most common response to folks feeling like they’re stuck in singlehood, clearly you already are putting yourself very out there. I’m left wondering if you’re almost putting yourself too out there, casting too wide of net. That’s not a criticism! But I’m trying to figure out something else you could try so as to at least not feel like you’re in a slump. What are you looking for in a partner? What are your priorities in a relationship? Write these things down. Maybe instead of going on dozens of first dates via the dating apps, get a little more intentional with who you’re planning dates with and seek out people who fit certain things you’re looking for. I know this is sort of contrary to conventional How To Date advice, but I think it could accomplish a few things here.
For starters, the sheer volume of first dates you’re going on and attempts to date you’re making may be contributing to your feelings of exhaustion and the pain of continually putting yourself out there to no avail. It’s possible you have feelings of dating fatigue! That would be understandable! It could be better for your overall mental state to scale back some of your dating efforts while still managing to put yourself out there to some degree, which could set you up for long-term success with dating. It also could mean more of an emphasis on dating people you have some baseline compatibility with. Getting intentional about your priorities in a potential partnership can teach you a lot about what you’re looking for and then set you up to go out and find what you’re looking for!
But of course, it also isn’t as simple as just that. It takes time, but the thing we talk about less is that it takes luck. Especially when we’re queer, our dating pools are just naturally smaller. Even in a big city with a lot of queer people. You are worth of love, and I think you will find it. There is always time, and it’s never too late. If you’re low on hope, borrow some from me! I do have hope for you! I have hope for everyone when it comes to finding love, truly.
Before you go! Autostraddle runs on the reader support of our AF+ Members. If this article meant something to you today — if it informed you or made you smile or feel seen, will you consider joining AF and supporting the people who make this queer media site possible?
Kayla Kumari Upadhyaya is the managing editor of Autostraddle and a lesbian writer of essays, fiction, and pop culture criticism living in Orlando. She is the former managing editor of TriQuarterly, and her short stories appear in McSweeney's Quarterly Concern, Joyland, Catapult, The Offing, The Rumpus, Cake Zine, and more. Some of her pop culture writing can be found at The A.V. Club, Vulture, The Cut, and others. When she is not writing, editing, or reading, she is probably playing tennis. You can follow her on Twitter or Instagram and learn more about her work on her website.
Dear letter writer,
I, too, know many people who are in a similar situation to you (but without the house:). Surely, this does not change that you feel something you wish for is missing from your life, but I want to second Kayla in two things: a) you are not alone, and b) there is so much luck (or the lack thereof) involved in dating.
You asked if you could do something different. I just want to point out that you are doing a lot of work already, and sometimes, that only means that the discard pile gets really big.
I have a few questions that might be paradoxical:
→ What if there is nothing to fix? What if you already do (or did) everything you could, and there is no need for self-improvement? What if you say to yourself: I am trying, and I know want something different for myself, but I also know the result is not in my hands and I cannot control the outcome? (It might make it easier to exhale because what you describe gives me an impression of breathlessness.)
→ Why are you trying to date? (That is not a judgment or a criticism. Nothing wrong about wanting to be in a relationship!) Maybe you can dive into what you would like from a relationship (if you haven’t already). What exactly do you miss? What exactly would you like to be different? Is there anything that people in your life at this point can provide that you would like to see from a romantic partner? Surely they cannot replace what you want, and it does not minimize this feeling of loss for you. Sometimes people feel like “If I don’t have this, I don’t have anything!” – and there is so much space between these scales.
→ What if you gave yourself a break? What you currently do sounds like a lot of pressure and as if you did everything to ace the test (of dating). What if you stopped for a while and see what’s that like for you? As an experiment. No good, no bad. I tried dating, and it made me feel______. I tried to take a beak from dating, and it made me feel______.
→ How can you take good care for yourself in the time you don’t have what you long for? How can you show up for yourself and meet your own needs as much as possible while recognizing that you would like a different life for yourself?
Maybe you’re doing all of these things (and more) already. In that case, ignore everything that does not fit!
This reads nearly verbatim to therapy advice I have received in the past.
100% applicable and helpful for LGBTQIA+ folk with low to mild level mental health complications.
Unfortunately CBT can only go so far and help a certain subset of individuals.
Apologies to my former counselor Rebecca, for being a CBT resistant terror.
I will be forever cross with Rebecca and her coworkers for ‘hiring’ me a few years later, just to surveil me and observe my behaviors. Like an animal in a zoo. I do believe this is a violation of social work ethics. Especially if information was passed along to outside parties. Sounds like breaking HIPPA and Social Work Ethical Code.
On the off chance this is indeed the same Rebecca, I’m glad you can help some people. But when CBT is your specialty and that specialty isn’t working, do refer out. And for the love of god do not go along with hiring someone to surveil them. It might be a good time to review the Social Work Code of Ethics.
Hi, I am really sorry this happened to you! What a shitty thing to go through! I am actually a very different Rebecca – just a stranger on the internet who apparently said something similar, who isn’t trained in psychology and just had some thoughts to share.
All the best to you!
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Whoops, wrong Rebecca.
The CBT is strong with you like the other Rebecca.
Wishing you the best as well.
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I just want to tell you I was single for a full 10 years with no prospects! Idk why I too am a catch. It did finally happen for me and it will for you too!
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You don’t know that. You can’t guarantee that.
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I have complicated feelings about telling someone that they will find a relationship. I know – the intention is very sweet & kind! However, we cannot “promise” someone something when in fact no one knows how other people’s futures will look like.
To clarify, I don’t mean to attack anyone here. Receiving the message “you’ll find someone, it’ll happen for you one day, too” might be exactly be the letter writer loves to see/needs to hear! People are so different! Personally, I don’t feel good when someone tells me this. I spend a lot of time with grief activism. In grief, people are quick to point out to a grieving person that things will get better. And that is very possible. But they don’t know; things can become worse as well.
Grief is not only a thing when it comes to death, but also when life doesn’t turn out the way we had hoped (ambiguous loss). From what I’ve seen so far, saying “it will be better/ you’ll find someone…” often takes place when it’s hard to hold space for someone’s despair / sadness / uncertainty. What I personally have found helpful is something like: whatever happens, I hope you can trust yourself to take care of yourself and that you have people in your life who support you. And: I hope you can live this in a way that feels true to yourself and that you can be proud of yourself, given this is the life you have now though you wanted differently.
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Isn’t there space for both Ellybelly and Yasmine’s sentiments?
Ellybelly’s message seems to be one of hope. Although the message could have been more explicitly named hope, shouldn’t there be room for this? In context of online messages on forums, I think this type of message has a place without being dismissive. Having hope is not inherently a bad message.
Living with or being close to and in contact with someone who couldn’t figure out how to ‘hold’ grief of, or be present with, a grieving person is a different story. That could ‘make the grief worse.’ I’m don’t think this incident is that situation, but it’s good to be aware of. Toxic positivity won’t lift the grief off a heavy grieving heart.
Yasmine’s message is more focused on attention on what can be controlled, like building self-confidence, and creating a supportive community of likeminded people who share goals. Note the attention shift from the grief to action while simultaneously gently reminding those who are grieving that it’s okay to feel the grief, and that there is more immediate hope in other areas of their lives. Reviving agency is key, and I think it is a fantastic message of hope with some general direction for action.
(I assume) We all know that life is a series of ups and downs. Things get better and worse all the time both in small everyday ways, and in chapters of years being ‘better or worse’ than the last. This is all in flux.
Because that’s a given, I really do not think it’s helpful or worthwhile to use the framework of “you don’t know (the grief) it’ll get better- it could get worse.”
Unless something seriously out of the norm happens, life kind of will drudge on like business as usual, with small moments of contentment, joy, inconvenience, anger, ect.
Ideally, with the agency of the griever, the situation will improve due to their own efforts.
That’s the hope at work.
It is true, people today generally do struggle to know how to be present with someone who grieves and sometimes can do more harm than good in these interactions.
At the end of the day, a message of hope seems essential. There are different ways to offer the message. Ellybelly’s message comes across as a more casual message of hope and validation (the ‘been there too, it’s real’ kind). This approach does well with general everyday encounters/interactions.
Yasmine’s message offers the sit with you in the feelings validation plus attention shift to areas with more personal agency. Generally, I’d expect this with a small handful of people in life, or my therapist.
It’s a wonderful approach, but should be used with discretion.
Using Yasmine’s approach with everyone who grieves is almost certain to create emotional burnout. And perhaps the resentment that comes with it. Again, great approach, use at your own discretion.
Anyways just the two cents from someone with too much time on a hot summer day.
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I get that many people want hope. Hope can be wonderful. To me personally, hope is a big vague concept that can mean so much different things. When hope is mentioned generally, my question is: hope in what? Hope in whom? Hope in how?
For example, if I hope that I will be in a wonderful relationship & have a good job in one year, that’s hope in a very specific outcome, and if this doesn’t happen, I will likely be disappointed & feel bad. I may consider myself a failure because it did not turn out the way I wanted, and I may think that I didn’t do my work “correctly.” But if I say to myself: how do I want to feel in the next year?, that feels different. Then, I can ask myself: what can I do / what is in my power to make it more likely that I will feel this way?
Hope in something very specific (a speedy recovery, getting pregnant, someone waking up from a coma…) gets disappointed all the time. So my approach now is: how can I take care for myself and how can I carry myself through this – given that this is what I have to live?
I agree with you that life is a series of ups & downs and things get better & worse in small & bigger ways. And then, there are a number of people who had major successive losses in a short time period. If someone tells them: “In five years, it can be much better!” they are like: “Well, it can also be worse. Five years ago, I had no idea that my mom would be murdered, my ex-partner would not survive their car accident, my friend would die of cancer and I would miscarry. So I am dreading the years to come.”
That might not be the norm, but I cannot tell you how many people experience a number of deaths or other devastating and life-changing losses in a short period of time & consequently expect bad things to come their way precisely because this was their experience.
You said that using my approach with everyone who grieves will almost certain to create emotional burnout. Can you say more about it? Personally, I have made better experiences with it than with casual hope/encouragement I used in the past because people felt I didn’t understand them/ their grief / pain / whatever the case. But I would like to hear more.
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Sorry to hear about the unfortunate series of losses, ie: death of mother, partner, friend and miscarriage. That’s tough to hear.
Grief work is incredibly emotionally exhausting. You don’t have to be a nurse or therapist to experience it. Although those professions will have high levels of exposure at the workplace, family members, partners, friends, or anyone emotionally close to someone who grieves has a higher risk level. Same goes for those with generally high levels of empathy.
Our society isn’t really structured in a way to properly support many individuals, including those who are grieving, or those who care for the suffering.
Hopefully this article can explain both burnout and compassion fatigue better than I can.
I feel you, letter writer. Also, I love the thoughtfulness in the response and all of the comments.
I have had a few relationships over the years with increasingly longer periods of being single. I have built a beautiful life with friends and community during my time as a single person, but I still deeply yearn for a romantic relationship. Sometimes I get frustrated with myself when I think about how it is that the one thing I want above all else is not attainable right now and the love for my amazing friends just doesn’t fully fill that void.
Recently I spoke with my therapist about how to move forward in life and do things I always planned to do with a partner, like maybe buying a condo. It’s been a heartbreaking process in many ways but I just have to hold on to hope that I will find my person and they will fit into the life I have built and I into theirs. For me, this hope is what keeps me going. Some days the 30 somethings dating pool feels extra small, but I try to remind myself that people move, break up, come out, etc. every day and I do believe one day I will find my person.
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I was single for many years and what helped me was understanding that there is literally nothing wrong with me for not finding a partner.
After a long break from dating, once I put myself back out there I was encouraged to pay attention to how I’m feeling during the date and be open to any outcome; rather than wait for the dating to “work” and result in a relationship.
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I’m mid 30s and have made peace with never finding a romantic partner. It is what it is. I find it easier to plan my life around never being in a romantic relationship than hoping it will happen one day.
Very few people fit my standards and I refuse to budge on them, even if it means never dating again.
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After I spent many years of my adult life single, I’ve come to see relationships as a gift, not a necessity. If I expect them or hope for them, there will be disappointment for sure. But if there is no expectation and then it happens, I consider it a true gift.
I’ve had beautiful and loving relationships that I’m grateful for. Some people never have that. Instead of looking at it as a lack, something that I don’t have, I now appreciate what I’ve been given before – will be happy if I happen to have it again, and more then content and okay if not.
Don’t know if it’s your thing, LW. It doesn’t work for everybody. Some people would be lying to themselves if they did that. But thinking about it differently changed something for the better in my life.
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read how to be single by jenny taitz and it’s not you by sara eckel! life-changing books for me!
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This is a hot take.
I would rather be alone
than be misunderstood.
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👏👏👏👏👏
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First, love yourself. Second, you sound desperate and if you carry that energy into dates, it could be having the opposite effect than you desire. Consider taking a break from dating to focus on being your own amazing partner and notice what differences that makes in your life. That our lives are necessarily better when we’re partnered is a fallacy perpetuated by so many people/systems and unfortunately reinforced everywhere we look that it becomes easy to believe. Trust, you are enough. Plus, confidence (not arrogance) and self-assurance are attractive!
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if a cute queer person who has a good job and owns a house already has a hard time finding a partner, i wonder/worry about the chances for queers/dykes who are unemployed or have a shitty job and/or are dis_abled and/or are not considered cute…
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cute is subjective but also *this*
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pushing 40 with no house, no car and and a barely-there checking account but at least i’ve unpacked my toxic delusions that i am owed love
also, advice seeker, not being friends with your exes may be straight culture, but it’s a gay red flag
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What a nasty thing to say. No where did OP imply being owed love. You’d think there’d be a little more understanding for how lonely the lesbian experience can be, but I guess not, you’ve just got to try and get your cheap shots in.
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lol no but thanks for trying lezzie
“Being a homeowner ALONE should qualify you for a long line of prospective girlfriends.”
literally a line pulled from the post
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What you quote is Kayla’s opinion, not from the letter writer.
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blanket statement on article
romantic partners are a lovely idea but what makes one worthy of romantic love? what does it mean if the desire is never fulfilled?
and why is a house something women would line up for?
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oh! also!
“it becomes more difficult to hold onto the belief that I am worthy of love and will find it.”
worthy : having adequate or great merit/character/value; deserving of one’s time or attention
will: expected, required
bonus points for that line being pulled from evangelical christian culture, which is deep into the Worthiness of Love (god/father/husband/pick a male gendered figure)
also – i question _your_ gayness Mizz Lizz;
throwing out accusations that i don’t know about lesbian loneliness while i’m actively debating queer liberation semantics 🤣🤣
bet you’re a gold star apologist, too!
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“it becomes more difficult to hold onto the belief that I am worthy of love and will find it.”
I read this entirely different than you. What I understand is an expressed insecurity. Your interpretation is surprising. Saying that the sentence above means someone thinks they’re being owed love is actually quite a stretch.
It seems to me that on a scale of how the letter can be interpreted, you chose the least favorable and insulate the worst.
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Your pathetic attempt at faux intellectual superiority doesn’t make you any less nasty just so you know.
Yeah, the world constantly beats down lesbians and tells us we are disgusting and unworthy, how dare we try to hold out hope that we’ll find love someday and cope with our loneliness! That still doesn’t imply being owed love, just a longing for someone to see that individual and find them loveable. You’re really projecting some nonsense here.
Who said anything about gold stars? You’re just over here making up stuff to get mad about lmao. Try again.
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“not being friends with your exes may be straight culture, but it’s a gay red flag“ – that depends who you are talking to. For some queers, it is/might be a red flag indeed. For others, it is met with relief. Queer people are so different when it comes to having contact or not with exes, and the way it is assessed by queers also varies strongly.
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I don’t think not speaking with exes is a red flag at all. I know queers who are friends with exes, queers who are not, and queers who have very dramatic or even toxic on again off again situations/tension/one sided pining with exes. I can think of two different former couples where the gray area of friendship post dating has kept one or both people from moving on romantically for a long time. I know people who have struggled with jealousy who find it a relief when they date someone without major ex connections (although that’s another issue entirely.)
For many, exes fade away naturally over time and I don’t think that should be a red flag. Personally, I’m friendly with a couple exes, no contact with another ex, and the last one has faded away due to time and distance over the years and that feels like the healthiest place for me at this time. I see friendship status with exes as entirely neutral and nuanced. You do you!
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the OP literally lists not talking to their exes as a positive trait & all your comment did is reinforce the fact that is absolutely a red flag.
Not talking to any of the people who you had a committed romantic relationship and grew a life together is not a good thing. It’s also not a bad thing.
Dare I say it’s a nonbinary third thing: a fact that requires context and shouldn’t be innately celebrated because of it’s violent practice based in “men and women can’t be friends” gender binary bullshit cultural norms.
aka
a queer red flag
aka
a concerning sign that requires a time out for interrogation
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This is a nuanced reply, you expressed that more eloquently that I could have. Thanks!
For the majority of their history, tabletop roleplaying games like Dungeons & Dragons were predominantly made for and by a single demographic: cisgender, heterosexual white men. While marginalized people have always been a part of tabletop culture, the last decade has seen actual play shows like Critical Role (where actors play tabletop games for an audience) introduce the hobby to new, more diverse generations than ever before. This larger cultural awareness has highlighted Dungeons & Dragons’ long, problematic history of bigotry and exclusion that it’s only just begun to reckon with. Paired with a series of industry scandals from D&D’s publisher Wizards of the Coast, this desire to engage tabletop games in a way that reflects our experiences and desires has led to a crop of “D&D Killers” rising to take its place. One such game, the newly released Daggerheart, is attempting to hold onto what makes D&D special while explicitly centering queer and disabled people.
“Tabletop games are a really powerful medium for storytelling as a genre, for escapism, for community building,” says Daggerheart’s senior producer Elise Rezendes. “A tabletop game allows players to explore different identities or explore different relationships, different environments beyond the one that they have in their own corporeal experience.”
Daggerheart is the most recent project of Darrington Press, Critical Role’s publishing arm that has printed other games like the eldritch horror Candela Obscura and the conversational card game about toxic power dynamics, For The Queen. In a lot of ways, Daggerheart looks like D&D. However, it’s D&D the way Critical Role plays it — or in other words, it’s D&D for theater kids. With a diverse, powerhouse team of designers, editors, artists, and producers, Daggerheart takes pieces from some of the best independent tabletop games of the last two decades and blends them into something new that is familiar to the most seasoned hobbyists and welcoming to those who’ve never rolled a d20 before.
“I am hoping that Daggerheart is the kind of game that people can learn over the course of two hours with their friends and loved ones at the table,” says Rezendes. “The nuance and the mastery can come later, but we wanted to build a system where onboarding was fun, supported, and fast.”
The game cites over 18 games as inspirations for its design — many of which have queer themes and designers — including the heist-centric Blades in the Dark, the world-saving monster RPG Apocalypse Keys, the angsty teen superhero game Masks: A New Generation, and the portal-hopping skater game Slugblaster. “For Daggerheart, we’ve tried to learn lessons from several approaches and synthesize them,” says Mike Underwood, a nonbinary designer and author who worked as one of the primary writers for the game. “Daggerheart is designed for explicit inclusion and metaphorical representation from the top to the bottom with a focus on collaboration and empowering players to make space and take up space for themselves and their own creativity. To create worlds and stories that reflect who they are and what they want to see in their rpg stories.”
Like D&D, Daggerheart builds on traditional fantasy aesthetics, with familiar classes like wizards, rogues, and bards. Players take on the roles of heroes, with a game master who takes on the role of everything else. Instead of the traditional fantasy “races” (a term that comes with decades of baggage), Daggerheart offers multiple ancestries for player characters, ranging from traditional elves, goblins, and dwarves, to anthropomorphic turtles, frogs, fungi, and more. Each player also comes from a community, which informs their skills and how they move through the world. Mechanically, there are stats like strength and knowledge, and you roll dice to determine if you succeed or fail (though the main die is a d12 instead of the standard d20). However, unlike D&D, Daggerheart doesn’t focus on long, drawn out combat; instead it puts narrative front and center. Rather than taking hours to crunch numbers like it would in D&D, character creation focuses on asking questions about who your character is, what their dramatic backstory might be, and how they came to be a part of this band of travelling adventurers.
“Narrative is not something that is divorced from tabletop games,” says Rezendes. “In tabletop games, you are the story. You’re actively collaborating with your other players, finding what makes you heroic by being set up against different circumstances, seeing who you are in those moments, and then growing. And that doesn’t happen outside of the lens of self identity, but it also allows you to put on different kinds of spectacles. What does the world look like through this tint of a rogue’s sunglasses? It just allows you to play in life in a fun and new way together with people that you love and admire.”
While focusing on narrative and minimizing math is one element of Daggerheart’s attempt to be more accessible, the efforts towards a more welcoming type of tabletop game are present in both the world of the game and how the designers chose to present it. The character art throughout the game book casually depicts a diverse world, showing a range of ancestries, genders, body types, abilities, and sexualities. A tense, sapphic moment is the splash page of the second chapter, a broad-chested man with top surgery scars is on the page describing damage rolls, and characters with mobility aids are included throughout the book. An entire section in character creation is dedicated to essays for players on how to respectfully and intentionally depict disabled characters, written by disabled designers. These elements aren’t unique to Daggerheart, but their presence and intentionality stands as a beacon of hope as marginalized people are facing discrimination and erasure from governments around the globe.
“One of the great joys of working on Daggerheart was the notion of starting from an open slate,” says Rue Dickey, a trans disabled designer who organizes the annual Trans Rights TTRPG bundle, which has raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for trans organizations across the United States. “I wasn’t brought on to ‘add’ diverse bodies and expressions, but rather to help shape the ones that were already in the game. There were already concepts for magical and technological prosthetics, different forms of mobility aids, and other access devices like hearing aids. There were already trans bodies, fat bodies, people with scars and limb differences and all manner of tattoos. The team came into Daggerheart wanting to bring a wide variety of fantasy people into the world, so that real people can see ourselves in the stories we tell! It was wonderful to work with a team that was always willing to make adjustments and improvements, and could turn an idea jam into dozens of concept sketches that made me vibrate with joy at how lived in the world of Daggerheart is.”
Rezendes says this dedication to visual diversity was “first and foremost” for the production team. A secondary goal for Rezendes as a producer was to “reset the default of what a protagonist looks like depicted in tabletop game arcs.” To do that, Rezendes kept an intricate spreadsheet. “We tracked in every single art piece, gender representation, age, ability, body type, ethnicity, Ancestry, Community, Heritage, which is a blend of both real world demographics and Daggerheart‘s demographics specifically. We had it from every intersectional mathematical possibility. Because queer people are also disabled. They also are POC. They also are elderly. Inclusivity is all inclusive. You can’t divorce it from one another. Being depicted in the art felt like you belong on this page, you belong in this piece, you belong in this game, you belong at this table, that’s what we wanted to do. That’s what we worked so hard to try to do.”
In making this game, Rezendes — who has designed introductory RPG games like The Session Zero System through her own company Mythic Grove Productions — says the most important aspect of this game has been ensuring “that people who have not been centered are centered and they’re centered by people in their own community. I wanted to be able to put art on a page that would have made me feel safe telling the kind of stories I wanted to when I was younger and was dipping my toes in this world. We consulted with a ton of folks to be able to make sure that in our attempt, we were doing that with kindness. We were doing it powerfully. And we were doing it with the biggest invitation that we possibly could. Like, come and play. Come and play.”
Before you go! Autostraddle runs on the reader support of our AF+ Members. If this article meant something to you today — if it informed you or made you smile or feel seen, will you consider joining AF and supporting the people who make this queer media site possible?
Rowan Zeoli is a journalist from Brooklyn, New York. Her work covers the intersections of gender and niche counterculture, and can be seen in Polygon and Tripsitter, among other publications.
I’ve loved the Criterion Collection since the summer of 2007 when I got The Red Shoes, Seven Samurai, and Ace in the Hole in a Barnes & Noble buy-two-get-one-free sale. Not only did the home video label allow me to watch a wide range of new films — they also provided so many special features to obsess over as a child who wanted to be a filmmaker.
My love has only increased over the last five years since they became the rare company to hear critiques — including my own — and actually improve. Their vision of the canon used to be so limited and now it has expanded for the benefit of us all!
For many years, their Criterion Closet videos have shown celebrities — often people who are at the offices for one of their films — making selections of the Criterion releases that have meant the most to them or that they most want to check out. It’s such a joy to watch people geek out about movies! And so I’ve gathered all the videos from queer people with some thoughts on their selections.
Agnès Varda
As I discussed a couple weeks ago, yes, Agnès Varda was bisexual. She was also a fan of Girls! I love listening to Varda talk about art and her selections from Campion to Kiarostami to Lena Dunham are excellent. Also The Marriage of Maria Braun is the film that caused me to fall in love with Fassbinder’s work.
Visiting the closet with actress Charlotte Rampling, the director of Weekend and All of Us Strangers has such fun banter with his 45 Years lead actress. His picks are also very British! Which I say with minimal judgment! How could a gay British boy not shout out Merchant/Ivory and Sunday Bloody Sunday I suppose.
Visiting the closet with her late husband and collaborator Jeff Baena, Plaza’s picks feel very in line with her creative voice from Ghost World to Scenes from a Marriage to Harold and Maude to 3 Women to picking I Married a Witch based on the title and cover art — something I also did once.
Ayo is a true cinephile!!! This is one of the best of these videos not just because of the picks — which are excellent — but because of how Ayo talks about movies.
I also really love how the picks are talked about here. And as someone whose favorite John Waters film is Multiple Maniacs, thrilled to see that represent the director. Also very relatable how in the final moments he snags two huge box sets.
This gets extra points for her quoting Brief Encounter: “I’ve fallen in love. I’m an ordinary woman. I didn’t know such violent things could happen to ordinary people.” And for the confirmation that the final shot of Aftersun was inspired by La Chambre. (I hope Criterion sent her the Chantal Akerman Blu-Ray set once they finally rescued those early films from the Eclipse label.)
Favorite pick: Eclipse 19 Chantal Akerman in the 70s which is now Out of Print so get this even better Akerman set instead
Cheryl Dunye
The first of many closet jokes on this list! So cool hearing Cheryl Dunye talk about Hollis Frampton and the influence of video art and experimental cinema on her work. And her picks overall might be the very best since she snags the Akerman, Varda, and Marlon Riggs sets. Truly cannot put into words how happy it makes me that The Watermelon Woman is finally in the Criterion Collection.
In this video, Desiree Akhavan talks about taking a directing class with Ira Sachs — more from him later — and being introduced to the films of John Cassavetes. She also talks about the influence of Safe on The Miseducation of Cameron Post. Perfect video.
I love the shoutouts here to Douglas Sirk and Melvin Van Peebles. It kind of feels passé to single out Rashomon among Kurosawa’s work but it remains my favorite and I appreciate what Bratton has to say about the film here. Also he shares that The Battle of Algiers is his favorite film of all time which given The Inspection is… interesting!
This is one of those director videos where every pick together makes so much sense for the artist’s voice. Bringing Up Baby meets Twin Peaks Fire Walk with Me meets Pink Flamingos with a dash of Godard.. yeah I’ve seen The Doom Generation!
Leave it to a trans woman to pick some Almodóvar. Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown is among my favorites and a great pick along with so many other great choices like The Naked Kiss, Grey Gardens, and possibly my all-time favorite Criterion release: the restored edition of The Red Shoes. Also yes shoutout Design for Living, an incredible early throuple movie.
Very relatable to call being in the Criterion Closet an erotic experience. This video also has some fun facts like how Sachs wanted to write about The Killing of a Chinese Bookie in college but Gena Rowlands wouldn’t send him a print so he wrote about Tati’s Playtime. He also shares that Little Men was inspired by Ozu’s I Was Born But… and Good Morning and a scene in Love Is Strange was inspired by a moment in Bergman’s The Magic Flute. Very good picks and a very good video from Passages director and Desiree Akhavan’s professor!
“This is the next best thing to transitioning” is an incredible way to start one of these. Picks like The Age of Innocence fit with the swooning romance of Isabel’s work! I also love the idea of spinning around and picking something at random.
A unique video since it’s five comics making their picks at the same time. I think only two are queer but correct me if I’m wrong. Not a ton of deep dives but everyone is having a good time!
This is another unique one because icon Janelle Monáe kept her picks all on theme with Halloween. It’s like a fun little film school class on horror and horror-adjacent films taught by the hottest professor you could imagine.
I enjoy listening to Jenni talk about movies more than just about anyone. She has great picks here and I especially appreciate the choice of the Louis Malle documentaries Eclipse set, a collection I got when I was way too young that challenged me in the best way.
At eight minutes and nineteen seconds this is by far the longest of these videos, but it’s worth it. “There’s a lot of required to be gay in my opinion and a lot of that required reading is in movies. And a lot of those movies are weird and European.” Yes, agreed. Everyone should make their friends watch Teorema. Also love the reveal that he shares a birthday with the Marquis de Sade. This one is for the Geminis.
Despite starting the video saying he has bad taste, his picks are good! I am also thrilled and a bit surprised that The Others is now in the collection. And how could anyone not love The Philadelphia Story?
John Early has been in the Criterion Closet at least twice and I wish there was a video of his visit with Stress Positions director Theda Hammel but we do have this one with Jacqueline Novak. A fun, chaotic energy here and I do love that they stumble upon one of my favorite queer horror movies: The Uninvited. Also it’s the movie I love most that I’m least likely to recommend but I agree that Fat Girl is such a special movie and I’m sorry if you watch it because we’re saying that.
The Blob to 8½ is so very John Waters and this video does not disappoint with his wide range of picks. I do not share his love for Beyond the Valley of the Dolls but something I love about Waters’ taste is it’s always a mix of work I love and work I do not.
Pretty sure she is the only person to enter the closet with a briefcase, but she really gets points from me for crying as she talks about Almodóvar. She also does a random pick and ends up with Ugetsu which is such an incredible film to stumble upon!
Overall such good picks from the creator of Fantasmas, one of the few TV shows I’ve seen in recent years that has made me feel the possibility of art. A mix of humor and horror and idosyncracity that fits right in with his own work. I love the way Where Is the Friend’s Home? and After Hours become in conversation with one another.
Obsessed with Karyn Kusama going with a theme as specific as “how do we address power, what do we do with power.” Rewatching this video — and watching Visconti’s Rocco and His Brothers for the first time this month — has reminded me I need to get the Criterion edition of The Damned because I’ve owned the same very old DVD for many years and I’m sure the Criterion version is gorgeous. God I love her selections so much and this is probably the video with the most choices I haven’t seen.
I didn’t realize Katya was such a cinephile and this was such a delight to watch a few weeks ago. Starting with a Tarkovsky film and eventually making it to Todd Solondz’s Happiness does feel right for her though.
The Fellini set that Daniels starts with is going to be my next big Criterion purchase. Also more Querelle love here! Daniels describes his taste/inspirations as “a little euro, a little ghetto, a little homo” but then also throws in The Piano a movie that I loved so fiercely for so many years and really need to revisit. (The Paperboy should get a Criterion release.) Woah who said that?
I’m obsessed with Lily Gladstone and Hirokazu Kore-eda becoming pals on the Cannes Jury. After Life was the movie I watched the night before my 30th birthday and it’s a really special one. I haven’t seen Gladstone’s first two picks so I need to change that, but once Erica Tremblay arrives her first pick is Certain Women and God do I love that film and Gladstone in it. Also very cute that they pick movies for each other.
Imagine your dad was Ethan Hawke. Seems like fun! Their banter here is very sweet and I am also very much a Children of Paradise missionary. I’m dead at the reveal that Ethan Hawke took Uma Thurman to see Husbands on one of their first dates.
Nathan Lane says his husband loves Rififi and that reminds me the two of them happened to be in my theatre for Black Bag. I bet his husband loved it! We’ve had Beyond the Valley of the Dolls gays but finally a Valley of the Dolls gay. I love how many of these he hasn’t seen and he’s just taking based on actors and vibes.
For some reason St. Vincent isn’t really on my radar anymore, but I was obsessed with her in high school and high school me would’ve melted at her saying, “Oh! Do we have The Bitter Tears of Petra von Kant?” I think we should get an update on whether she watched the Chantal Akerman films and what she thought of them, because pretty sure based on her other picks she fell in love.
More beautiful Brief Encounter love! Everyone watch Brief Encounter! I always love when people pull out films to mention but then are like “I already have this” like he does. This video could be an hour long and I’d be happy.
Moonstruck and Love Jones are such incredible romance picks. Also Thelma and Louise lets be honest. I hope Trace did end up watching Satyricon with a joint because that sounds like a perfect experience.
Want to make some purchases of your own? The Barnes & Noble 50% off Criterion sale is now through July 27. Can’t afford to buy? Subscribe to The Criterion Channel or go to your local library!!! The library is how I watched most Criterions as a kid.
Before you go! Autostraddle runs on the reader support of our AF+ Members. If this article meant something to you today — if it informed you or made you smile or feel seen, will you consider joining AF and supporting the people who make this queer media site possible?
Drew is a Brooklyn-based writer, filmmaker, and theatremaker. She is a Senior Editor at Autostraddle with a focus in film and television, sex and dating, and politics. Her writing can also be found at Bright Wall/Dark Room, Cosmopolitan UK, Refinery29, Into, them, and Knock LA. She was a 2022 Outfest Screenwriting Lab Notable Writer and a 2023 Lambda Literary Screenwriting Fellow. She is currently working on a million film and TV projects mostly about queer trans women. Find her on Twitter and Instagram.
You guys are the best. This is so wonderful (also thank you for including me!)
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Sometimes I decide I really am far too old for this site (and I don’t mean millennial-style “I’m so oooooold”–I am actually on the doorstep of elderly), but then there’s an article like this that I would find nowhere else. This must have been a chore to put together, and this old lady thanks you!
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This is so delightful! I’m just booking in my art house cinema movies for the summer so I’ll keep an eye out for ones here I’ve not seen!
also yes brief encounter my god
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I think The Others has had a little bit of a renaissance in recent years. A lot of younger YouTube reactors have reacted to that movie, Nicole Kidman shouted it out as one of her favorites she’s ever done, and I’ve seen it on some Best of lists. It helps that a lot of people watching it for the first time now don’t know that it came out shortly after Sixth Sense (although it was written BEFORE Sixth Sense). And it’s actually still not an easy twist to guess. A lot of people give themselves credit for what’s essentially a half-guess, and most of them who did make the half-guess at some point get fooled out of it again because of the way the movie structures everything.
But that’s almost beside the point: Unlike Sixth Sense, The Others is a movie that rewards re-watching, so even if you know the entire twist it’s still fantastic viewing. Perhaps the only thing in Sixth Sense that is worth re-watching is Toni Collette’s scene near the end.
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Shoot out to Paul Preciado’s picks which somehow didn’t make it to the list!
on-screen makeout I’d love to add to this list: Charlize Theron and Sofia Boutella bathroom makeup in Atomic Blonde
SUCH a good pick!
Love this list! Loads of my faves on here and a few to add to my watchlist. Off the top of my head, But I’m A Cheerleader would definitely be up there if I were to do my own list.
Soooo good. I decided to consider that a sex scene instead of a make out scene but it’s a gray area for sure.
No I agree, that’s a sex scene imo too! I was actually thinking of their first kiss at the gay bar.
Ooooo that IS a good one!
Incredible list!! Drew rules always. For me it’s the first kiss in The World to Come.
I find it odd that some of these not only look incredibly awkward but fall under the category of experimentation. Cruel Intentions isn’t a lesbian film, two or three on this list would be purely just experimenting which is fine, but it’s misleading to include them in a LESBIAN list while completely over-looking Elena Undone, Walk with Me, Carol and numerous other actual lesbian films.
Elena Undone was unbearable to watch, worthy makeout or not.
Look, the World to Come is one of the worst lesbian films ever made BECAUSE it also includes the best kiss ever
Definitely missing Chloe Sevigny & Michelle Williams in These Walls Could Talk 2 – it’s everything 🥵