My wife Kristen and I have had conversations throughout our relationship about our relationships to femmeness and butchness. Prior to our relationship, I felt fledgling in my femmeness, but once we started dating, I gradually began harnessing an over-the-top femininity that felt like the real me. A huge part of that was Kristen’s almost precognitive perception of what I feel and look good in: from jewelry, to makeup, to clothes. This has led to us joking through the years that I’m like a Barbie doll for her to dress up and play with.

I was going to write an essay about this, but I thought an interview between the two of us would be even more revelatory — and I was right! Below, find our conversation about the “sliding scale” of gender expression, the masc urge to style femmes, the many services Kristen offers at “Daddy’s Salon,” and more.

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Kayla: Okay, this is the interview where you’re going to talk about treating your wife like a Barbie doll, and then you’re going to get canceled.

Kristen: Hopefully, yeah, in that order.

Kayla: What would you get canceled for before?

Kristen: Who’s to say!

Kayla: So I figured to start, I feel like you have a decent amount of Barbie lore. So before we even get into gender and sexuality and that kind of stuff, what is your history with Barbie?

Kristen: I wrote an essay about this for BuzzFeed, but I was obsessed with Barbies. I loved dolls growing up. I thought baby dolls were fine — I liked them, but they weren’t my favorite. I loved Barbies. I liked how they moved. I liked all the different outfits and themes they had. I liked the accessories. I liked the idea that you could spend a literal hour putting together a scenario, setting up a scene between two Barbies and put together what that bedroom would look like, or a kitchen or something. Sometimes I would do that and that would take me two hours, and then I’d be exhausted and I’d be like, well, I can’t even act the scene out now because I’m tired from setting up the scene.

So maybe that’s the writer in me, early writing brain being like, and here’s what’s going to happen in the scene. But we didn’t have any money either, so it’s like the dolls I had, I collected from different people on birthdays and Christmas. But I would use a shoebox as a bed and I would be like, oh, look, I can use the shoebox lid as a wall inside the place. I didn’t have stuff, using a Kleenex wadded up as a pillow and another Kleenex for a blanket, so it’d be trying to set stuff up with the things I had. It was very fun. The accessory stuff felt very creative, but I also liked the Barbies just because I thought that they were pretty. They were always older seeming than me, because when I had them, they were fully fleshed out in form.

Kayla: Boobs.

Kristen: They had boobs and asses, and they looked like adults. I liked that they looked like adults.

“i wanted to have a barbie that represented the babysitter’s club”

Kayla: Did you have favorite ones?

Kristen: Yes, but especially when I was in the fifth grade, I was obsessed with The Babysitter’s Club, and so I wanted to have a Barbie that represented what I thought was each member of the Babysitters Club. I’d set up the room where they would be at somebody’s house, at Claudia Kishi’s house, taking the meeting. She’s the only one with the phone line.

Kayla: Yeah. I said yeah, but I actually know very little about The Babysitter’s Club.

Kristen: Come on, Kayla.

Kristen: So I had different Barbies that represented each of those members of The Babysitter’s Club. I thought I did a great job with them. My California Fun Barbie was Dawn because she was from California. So I’m like, aha, perfect. Because Ann M. Martin’s always writing her as dressing like she’s from California, whatever the fuck that means.

There were these dolls that weren’t Barbies, but were popular for a period of time called Maxie Dolls, and they were like Barbies, except I think at the time they were proto-feminist, so the boobs were a more normal size, the waist was—

Kayla: Smaller boobed Barbies?

Kristen: Yes.

Kayla: Like flat-chested Barbie?

Kristen: Not flat-chested, but a reasonable sized proportion. Her feet were flat.

Kayla: Oh, she didn’t have the perpetual heel.

Kristen: She wore a flat shoe, but she, to me, looked really sophisticated, so I made her Stacey, who was from New York.

Kayla: Got you.

Kristen: And then, I mean, Kristy, who was the tomboy, I made her Skipper.

Kayla: So she was the tomboy? I mean, that’s what I was going to get into.

Kristen: Skipper’s also a little kid, kind of.

Kayla: I think when I was playing with Barbies, Skipper went through a few rebrands and they aged her up eventually. She was still a teen. I had a skateboard Skipper that I think was supposed to be a little older.

Kristen: Then they came out with Kelly, who was supposed to be in elementary school.

Kayla: Yes, Kelly was the little one. With the exception of that one Skipper — which is also funny because Skipper was not that much of a tomboy.

Kristen: I think my brain chose her as that, because I was like…

Kayla: You were mostly playing with very high femme, classic Barbie dolls.

Kristen: Right. I had outfits for all of them. I wasn’t as interested in the gowns on Barbie. Don’t get me wrong. I had some, but it was like whatever people gave me, I kept. I had a shit ton of clothes, but my favorites were little slutty outfits.

Kayla: Like Club Barbie.

Kristen: Club Barbie. I had this white leather mini skirt with a purple velvet belt with glitter in it, and I thought that was a hot look. I loved crop tops, little tank tops or a little shrug, leotard, any aerobics clothes. I’d like them to look sexy. Somebody gave me a wedding with accessories, but those were not as fun to me. The fun stuff was more like, Rocker Chick Barbie.

“tomboy barbies were a subconsciously accessible form of queer expression”

Kayla: Well, that’s funny to me because I feel like Barbies are for us, like they are for a lot of queer people, part of our original queer lore, but in these interesting ways where you were playing with super, super femme Barbies, but now you’re more butch, more masc. I was playing with the “tomboy” barbies, which weren’t like,MascBarbie, but I was playing with Skipper—

Kristen: There was Ken, Kayla.

Kayla: There was Ken. I did not like Ken. I was like, that was too masc. But I liked Skipper. There was a line called The Generation Girls, something like that, and I had one who was a tomboy. She skateboarded and had these baggy metallic pants and a boombox. And also, I had a Mary Kate [of the Olsen Twins] Barbie, which was the tomboy one. She had a horse-riding outfit — khakis and a blazer, pretty masc for Barbie.Equestrian attire, basically masc.

So I was very drawn to that. And now I’m so femme and high-femme myself, but it also took me a while to get to that high-femme place. I think that those tomboy Barbies were almost like a subconsciously accessible form of queer expression or queer gender expression for me at a super young age, before I ever would’ve put words to that or really understood it. But then I think for you, it was the opposite. This idea of being able to dress up and manipulate these slutty, femme Barbies.

Kristen: I would’ve spent all day playing with Barbies, and I played with my Barbies way longer than other people I knew.

Kayla: Me too. We both have younger sisters, I will say.

Kristen: I used that quite often as an excuse to be able to play with them. But I didn’t like playing with my sister with them. I liked that my sister got stuff, and then I got to play with it myself. Because my sister’s eight and a half years younger than me. And my closest sibling was my brother, and he and I were less than two years apart, and he was not wanting to play with Barbies. There was a period of time when I had a friend from church who’d sometimes want to play Barbies, but mostly I’d play Barbies by myself. Just for hours, alone, putting together my scenarios. I was very specific about my Barbies and didn’t want people touching them or messing with them. I got very angry if my sister tried to do things to them ’cause I didn’t trust other people to take care of them the way I wanted to.

Kayla: Because those were your girlfriends.

Kristen: Those were my girlfriends.

Kayla: Those were literally your girlfriends. And if anybody was mistreating them, you were going to fight them.

Kristen: Well, I think because too, I was so careful how I put their clothes on, keeping all their stuff together, their hair. I wanted their hair to look like it had when they were in the box. You couldn’t have paid me money to cut off my Barbie’s hair, which I know some people did. I loved their hair! It was the most beautiful, long, gorgeous hair, and I was like, I really want to keep it looking nice.

Kayla: Did you ever have any of the brunette dolls, though, because you don’t love a blonde?

Kristen: I did have some, yeah. I had—

Kayla: Teresa, mayhaps? Was she around?

Kristen: Yes, I think she was my Mary Anne.

Kayla: I love Teresa.

Kristen: She was my Mary Anne in my situation. And my Claudia doll was Asian American, and she had beautiful hair. And I just wanted them to stay looking pristine and perfect. And the jewelry — like sometimes they came with earrings you could put on them.

Kayla: Yeah, I remember because I ripped some out of mine.

Kristen: Oh my God. Oh, that was a thing that happened too. I had an unholy fit once because it was either my brother or my sister chewed on the hands and feet of my Barbies and ruined them.

Kayla: A lot of people have oral fixation with Barbie limbs.

Kristen: I get it, but it ruined them — their hands were all crimped up! I wanted to maintain how they looked, which wasn’t something I felt for myself. I didn’t even brush my own hair most of the time. I was always dirty, my clothes never fit right. Dressing for church made me deeply physically uncomfortable.Not even like, oh, I feel uncomfortable with gender. I did feel uncomfortable about clothes. Most of the time, I just wore them. I had to start wearing heels and pantyhose and lipstick to church by the time I was in sixth grade, and I didn’t like that, but I knew that I had to. But I loved that stuff on Barbies.

“i like things that are shiny”

Kayla: So, from even very early on in our relationship, you bought me a lot of jewelry and clothes.

Kristen: Well, okay, for myself — the things I wear jewelry-wise are just the things I’ve worn for basically my whole life.

Kayla: Yeah. It’s very permanent. And It’s very masculine of center, I would say.

Kristen: It’s pretty minimal, and I don’t take it off ever, except my watch that I put on and take off every day. I don’t take any of it off.

Kayla: Yeah. Even in the shower.

Kristen: Even in the shower, to sleep.

Kayla: But you like femme jewelry. You just like it on me.

Kristen: I like to look at it. A huge part of what I liked about Barbie was that I could look at Barbie and be like, what do I think looks good on her? What do I think makes her look good? And so you could look at her and be like, she has this color hair. She looks this way. She comes with this makeup on. You could see what coloring that was, and then choose something to go with it.

I was also limited, because we didn’t have any money. My mom would sew clothes or I had some clothes that were hers from when she was young from her Barbie. So it’s these retro 1960s, 1970s stuff, which was really pretty fun. But yeah, buying clothes and jewelry for you felt actually so much easier than buying it for myself. Because when I was wearing stuff like skirts or jewelry, wearing makeup, I could buy it, but I’d never know what would fit on me or look right.

Kayla: Meanwhile, pretty much literally since the second we got together, you’ve bought me jewelry, at least one piece of jewelry for every single gift giving holiday that we’ve ever celebrated together — Christmas, my birthday, our anniversary, whatever. It’s very rarely something I would’ve picked for myself. It’s one of those things where you know what looks good on me better than I do. You’re also not going off of trends or anything. You’re not buying me the thing that you see that every girl is wearing on Instagram or something like that. You buy me something that’s so perfect on me. And my mom, early on, was always very shocked by that. She would compliment me on something I was wearing, like jewelry or clothes, and I was like, “Yeah, Kristen got that for me.” And she was like, “What?!”

Kristen: Well, some of it is that I feel like, in buying jewelry for you, what I usually try and think about is, because you do wear a lot of jewelry…

Kayla: I do. I love jewelry and I love to change it out too.

Kristen: You mix and match and wear a lot of different things. So usually I think about what things you are interested in, and I also think about the stuff you’ve been into…because you go through, I feel like, spurts of wearing more rings at one time or wearing more necklaces.

Kayla: More silver sometimes, more gold.

Kristen: Yeah. And so I go based off of that, but also I like to see if I can find something that you don’t have already. Is it something that looks like something that you would wear with the clothes and fashion you’re into right now?

Kayla: I always get compliments on pretty much all the jewelry I wear from you.

Kristen: I think jewelry — It has to have a personality. I try and get you something that looks like it has its own personality. But it’s fun to buy you jewelry because then you wear it, and then I get to look at you wear it. And that is better than if I put it on myself because, I used to get jewelry for myself but never wore it.

Kayla: You just liked looking at it.

Kristen:  I like things that are shiny.

Kayla: You love things that are glittery, shiny, all of that. Which I think people don’t always associate first with butchness or masculinity or whatever.

Kristen:  I love shimmer and glitter and sequins. Something shiny will catch my eye. I’m like a crow.

Kayla: You are. It can be the tackiest dress I’ve ever seen, but if it’s sparkly, you’re like, “That’s so cute.” Not that you’ve ever bought me something tacky. That’s not what I mean. I mean on reality television or something like that.

Kristen: Well, I know that I like looking at things that are shiny, but also, and I’ve bought you some things that are shiny, but I only try and buy you things that I think are something you will actually wear, first of all.

“this is the last time I’m wearing a dress”

Kayla: You also buy me clothes. And I think you approach buying me clothes in a similar way to how you’re dressing those Barbies, which is you are drawn to how these cuts of clothes look, but obviously you just don’t want to wear them. You want to admire them in proximity to you.

Kristen: Especially when I was working in libraries, I’d have to be dressed for work all the time — heels, pencil skirts, dresses or rights or whatever. I had a closet full of clothes ’cause I was interested in the idea of different patterns and looking at things. I had so many floral dresses and I’d just be looking at myself thinking okay, this is wearing me, instead of I was wearing that thing. And there were certain things I found that I liked better. Things that were more tailored, that had a certain something that made me wear them longer.

Kayla: Yeah, I mean, I think that anyone who knows you or is even a little bit familiar with you would be surprised to hear that one of the last times you wore a dress was as recently as earlier in our relationship. We went to a wedding together, and you wore a dress.

Kristen: And I remember being there, being like this is the last time I’m wearing a dress.

Kayla: And it was! Well, when you decide you’re done with something, it’s very definitive.

Kristen: Yeah, that is absolutely true. But I was looking around and I was like I’m at a gay wedding right now. Why am I in this outfit that I don’t want to be wearing?

Kayla: I think when you were working in libraries, you felt like you had to perform for the workplace, but at in a space like a queer wedding, that bubble was suddenly popped.

Kristen: I was really unhappy. I was unhappy that I had worn it, honestly. So I was like, that’s just the last time I’m doing that.

Kayla: I wore a full sequin dress because I knew you would love it.

Kristen: It was shiny. You looked like a mermaid.

“you’re holding it down for the long-haired butches”

Kayla: By the point of that wedding, you had been out as queer, as gay for a long time, but I think close to that wedding and the beginning of our relationship — even when we were just fucking around or whatever — you were still coming into butchness a little bit.

Kristen: Well, some of it is that I’ve always been really particular about what I like for myself, and when I do find something I like, I really keep that. I’ve had the same haircut since 100 years ago.

Kayla: You’re holding it down for the long-haired butches.

Kristen: I like long hair.

Kayla: You’re holding it down for the butches who sometimes wear lipstick, too.

Kristen:  The lipstick I wear happens to be red, but it’s actually this balm that’s more of a chapstick-lipstick that’s minty. But I just like my hair long.

Kayla: I don’t think that changes my perception of you as butch or anything. I know that we have actually written or done these interviews for Autostraddle before, where we’ll get the weird response of “Kristen Arnett, she’s not a butch.” There’s been random troll-y comments like that, and I’m like, what are you talking about? Because she has long hair, because she wears lipstick? That just doesn’t click for me, but I think there’s still people even within our community that are so biased in the way that they perceive masc identity or butch identity.

Kristen: I also think too, everything is so much on a sliding scale and whatever. There’s been times recently where I’m like, “I don’t really want to wear lipstick right now.” But then there’s still days I get up and then I’m like, I really want to wear a lot of it. And I think that’s just how you change how you think about yourself.

Kayla: Yeah, I mean you were wearing blush for a while when you were still very much already expressing butch-ness.

Kristen: There’s noprogrammed guide to be like, here’s how you perform any of this stuff.

Kayla: I think for either side of it, femme, butch, any of it.

Kristen: It’s all just movable on a scale, I think. I mean, some of it is here’s what I like right now, and that can include any number of things. I own the same pair of shorts in five different colors because I was like, I like these shorts because I like how they fit.

Kayla: You like what you like.

Kristen: I like what I like.

Kayla: But there’s a difference for you about what you like on you versus what you like to admire on me.

Kristen: I’m so particular and have such a narrow set of things I like for myself. But for you, it’s so expansive.

It’s like how I was for those Barbies, where I view it as an open palette. So it’s like, are we dressing you for summer? Are we going to New York for the weekend? What do those clothes look like, or that makeup? Are we going to the beach? Are we going on vacation? Are we going to the mountains?

“i got your femme hand-me-downs”

Kayla: When we moved in together, I always say, I got your femme hand-me-downs. You were getting rid of a bunch of stuff when we were moving and you were like,let me go through all my dresses and my heels. Tell me what you want. And I took a lot of it.

Kristen: You did.

Kayla: And I still wear a lot of it, like the pencil skirts from librarian days. And it’s interesting because people like my family, they really got to know you once you were a little more butch and more comfortable in that space too, so that’s how they know you. So every time my mom compliments me on a skirt and I say that it used to be yours, her mind is blown.

Kristen: I mean, some of that too is as soon as I got to leave the day work of library work to become a writer full-time, I got torelease a certain way of behaving or moving through the world.

Kayla: I think a lot of people who have worked service jobs can probably relate to that, having to perform.

Kristen: It basically was like, here’s all this uniform that I don’t need anymore. Because the only place I wore that stuff was at work. If I’m not doing this job anymore, I don’t have to wear this kind of “uniform” anymore. Jewelry, makeup, dresses, skirts, shoes, I just let it all go. It was very freeing. But then when you were trying it on, I was like, “oh that looks great on you!” Like those platforms I had that were getting older, and not gonna last much longer, I gave to you.

Kayla: Oh yeah. I wore those wedges to that Ilana Glazer show and the heel completely broke off.

Kristen: Yeah.

Kayla: I’m just walking around on mismatched heels at Gramps in Miami.

Kristen: But I liked them so much on you and you liked them so much, I just got you new ones.

Kayla: Do you think it was solely the job that kept you holding onto those high femme parts of your clothing and wardrobe and stuff? Or was it also that when you were in your twenties, you hadn’t quite figured out that really liking that stuff actually meant you would like it on somebody else? Do you think you held onto it a little bit for that reason, before figuring that out?

Kristen: In my twenties, absolutely yes. But once I was in my thirties, and … some of it too was having a child and having to be in front of people who were judging me because of my age and because of my sexuality. I dressed up in those situations too, because it was basically also a uniform. I need you to take me seriously as a parent.

Kayla: Because those other parents were already biased against you.

Kristen: Yes.

Kayla: So to be too butch in that space would make that worse.

Kristen: Or just not even look serious. I couldn’t be wearing shorts or a t-shirt. I had to look so put together, at the very least like I was business-oriented, like I’m coming from a job, I’m serious. But in my thirties I only wore that stuff at work. Then I’d come home, and especially when I got divorced and I was dating and stuff, I only wore the same pair of ripped jeans and the same pair of Docs I’ve had since forever. Oxfords, like button-ups or tank tops or t-shirts, like V-necks and things.

My best friend Maria came to my Halloween party at the house, and I thought she’d just not worn a costume, but I thought she looked so hot. She was dressed as me! She was wearing those same stupid loafers I own and my ripped jeans and a white V-neck and the necklace that I wear every single day and my same glasses, holding a beer. And I was like, she looks amazing.

Kayla: And she was literally dressed as you.

Kristen: She was dressed like me. There’s just a way in which I like to look. And I knew that, kind of. I know I like to look like that. I still like to look like that. My fashion sense hasn’t changed. But dressing you is fun. I don’t do your makeup or anything, but I love when you sit down and put on a full face of makeup.

Kayla: And you have opinions, when I ask for them.

Kristen: When you ask. I would never try and tell you my opinion about how you should do your makeup.

“when we first started dating, we were on different gender expression journeys that ended up complementing each other really well.”

Kayla: I do think it’s really interesting because I feel like when we first started dating, you and I were both on very different gender expression journeys that then ended up complementing each other really well. We were both able to get to the point where we are now, I think, a lot faster than if we had not had that, not charged off of each other. Because for me, our first date, I showed up in a very … not masc outfit, but I was doing David Rose from Schitt’s Creek. drag. I was in a long black T-shirt.

Kristen: It was more like androgynous.

Kayla: Yeah, with these black cargo pants, really, oversized cargo pants, the long black shirt, some chains and some rings, sure, but I was definitely doing David Rose.

Kristen: It was just a lot of black eye makeup too, and not really anything else.

Kayla: Yeah. Not what has become my signature look now, I would say.

Kristen: Your New York era.

Kayla: That’s my New York era. No, but what it was, I mean, even when you and I started dating and that first date, I was coming off of at least a year, maybe longer, of not wearing dresses or skirts.And I think part of that was just my gender expression within dykeness, within being a lesbian, has really gone all over the place a lot. I had the awkward baby butch era, when I was first coming out and got an undercut. I still really liked makeup though, so it was heavy makeup, but a lot of button-downs and very fitted outfits that I thought lesbians wore.

And then I got a little comfortable with my queerness, went back to my wardrobe and fashion sense from before of long skirts and things like that, pretty femme or whatever. And then something that happened in my long-term relationship before our relationship just really threw me off. I became very insecure about a lot of things. I started wearing very baggy clothes, wearing the same things all the time. And then after that bad breakup, I was like, yeah, I don’t even know, going through something. I mean, even before the breakup, I got the Timothée Chalamet haircut.

I was almost back to square one with the confused baby butchness, a lot of eye makeup, oversized Calvin Klein t-shirts I’d buy from thrifts, big pants. It had been at least a year since I’d worn a skirt or dress when we went on our first date.

I think it was around that time of just getting out of that last relationship and then especially when I moved out of that apartment with that person, I was rediscovering myself and really realizing how much I love to be a femme. And then the fact that that was something too that you really enjoyed and you also were buying me these things, maybe buying me things that I wouldn’t have been buying for myself at the time — but wanted. It’s like you knew.

Kristen: Sure, yeah.

Kayla: Especially clothes. Yeah, sparkly clothes and things like that.

Kristen: I feel like it does sound the way I’m describing it. I buy things like toddler clothes for you.

Kayla: Not toddler! But they are something that a toddler would love. When I wear a dress that you bought me, I get so many compliments from my five-year-old niece.

Kristen: Oh my god.

Kayla: But yeah, it was interesting because I think it was this dual thing happening for both of us at the same time, and I think that helped both of us too with that journey. When I bought that dress for that wedding, I knew you were really gonna like it. Itwas emerald green, head to toe, long sequined gown, super low cut. I loved it But I remember buying it because I was like, oh yeah, Kristen would really like this too. It was not the type of thing I would’ve bought myself for a long time, and I felt amazing in it, so good. So then the fact that you were at that wedding too in an outfit that you did not feel good in—

Kristen: I felt deeply uncomfortable in what I was wearing, but it was good for me because—

Kayla: I think we both had really good realizations at that wedding.

Kristen: After the wedding was over, our friends Ryan and Chelsea were there and they were like, “Do you guys want to go get drinks afterwards?” And I was like, “Yes, but we’ve got to go back to the hotel.”

Kayla: And change, that’s right.

Kristen: I was like, “I need to change clothes.”

Kayla: That’s right.

Kristen: So I got to put on normal clothes, and it was a relief, first of all. That physical relief I’ve always felt with getting to take off stuff like that. But then, because I also was wearing a dress that required a strapless bra.

Kayla: That’s crazy to think about, too.

Kristen: And I was like, why did I do this to myself? It was very funny to me because I feel like it was the last hurrah of trying that out, where I knew going into the situation I was going to be wearing a lot of things that made me really uncomfortable. The shoes I had were really pointy toe, black, almost stiletto heels.

Kayla: Yeah. You changed into your Docs for the bar.

Kristen: I changed into my Docs. And I was like, this is great. I’m never going to need to do this again. And I was like, if I’m going to go to another event, it’s going to be not in a dress anymore. And that was very helpful to me.

Kayla: Meanwhile, I left the floor-length sequin dress on for the dive bar. I only changed my shoes. But I was likeI’m leaving the dress on!

“you treat me like a Barbie doll because you do my hair”

Kayla: So I mean, I think we used to joke about you treating me like a Barbie with the jewelry and clothes and all of that, but recently it has become even more apparent that you treat me like a Barbie doll because you do my hair.

Kristen: Yes. I mean, I don’t do very intricate hairstyles or anything because I think a lot of times when people hear “do a person’s hair,” they’re thinking about some braiding or updo or—

Kayla: Blowout or something.

Kristen: And that’s not what’s happening. It’s more like hair care.

Kayla: Yeah, you’re doing my hair the way you did Barbie’s. In the way that you wanted to preserve how Barbie’s hair looked out of the box, you’re doing mine just as it’s naturally worn,which is honestly what I like, I mean, except for when I went through phases in high school, middle school and stuff where I was straightening my hair, as most curly girls did at some point. But for the most part, I like my hair to be very natural. At the most, when I’m doing my own hair, I diffuse it. But even for our wedding, I wanted a very natural look for my makeup and for my hair. I wanted it to look like the way I always do my makeup and hair, but just elevated. And so you do my hair just to make it look the way it’s naturally supposed to look. Natural curl pattern, all that stuff. You’re taking care of my hair.

Kristen: Yeah, I do. I would say I do hair care for you. I haven’t dyed my own hair since probably 2012, but I dye yours for you.

Kayla: Oh yeah, you do it and you do it so fast.

Kristen: It takes three boxes of dye to do your hair.

Kayla: I have a lot of hair! And I’ve always box dyed my hair, and I tried different colors throughout my youth and my mom would do it, or do it with my sister, sometimes. I think I’ve only had my hair professionally dyed once, and I was like, “this is dumb, I don’t have to pay for this.” But then then I said something about it and you were like, “I could do that.”

Kristen: It’s easy.

Kayla: You did an amazing job, so then you became my colorist. We do it in the backyard.

Kristen: Sometimes I make you a spritz.

Kayla: Yeah, exactly. It feels like the full salon experience.

Kristen: There’s usually a bird or something in the birdbath.

Kayla: We call it Daddy’s Salon.

Kristen: So I dye your hair, but also I’ve started doing a thing where, I’ve always looked to give you a scalp massage or scratch at your scalp for you. And then now, because your hair is getting really long right now because your hair grows really fast, I’ve been detangling it for you.

Kayla: Yeah. Every other day, you detangle my hair. We sit on the couch and you detangle my hair.

Kristen: And then sometimes I’ll put coconut oil in it.

Kayla: You’ve bought me hair products and told me how to use them. This all sounds crazy, you teaching me about hair, because it’s yeah, you’re a white person with straight hair and I’m half Indian and have this curly textured hair. But I think the context for this is no one ever really taught me how to do my hair.

I feel very sensitive about my hair because of the way that my mother was about my hair growing up. Also, for a little background context,my sister, who I’m very close with, does not have any hair. And I think that created a dynamic growing up where my parents, for a long time, thought we’re going to keep Kayla’s hair really short because Alex doesn’t have hair. We don’t want to make her jealous.

Anyways, my sister’s a very strong person. She has alopecia. She never felt any type of way, but my parents basically kept my hair really short. I think part of it was also my mom not really wanting to deal with it because any time it did get long, she didn’t really seemingly know how to deal with it at all. And my hair is not that curly and it’s not that textured, but it’s just different enough from what she was used to that she, to this day, doesn’t really understand. She’s like, “Well, why does your hair get tangled?” Or whatever. And I’m like, because texture. Because it’s thick. Because there’s a lot of it.

Kristen: Your mom also has never had long hair either. Your mom always has had a very short haircut.

Kayla: She has thick hair, but it’s just different than mine. And there was never a real understanding about that. She wanted to brush my hair out all the time. My hair looked really bad when it was brushed out. My family made fun of my hair a lot growing up, compared me to Ugly Betty.

Kristen: Oh my god.

Kayla: And I was like in middle school when that show came out. But that was mean! I do love America Ferrera. Actually, that’s a Barbie connection.

Kristen: Yeah it is!

Kayla: But also if my hair looked like Ugly Betty’s, it’s because my mom was brushing it out and just making it into a bushy mess.

Kristen: A big part about taking care of your hair for me has been being really patient. And so sometimes the only times I’ve gotten on your case about it is because you can occasionally be impatient with your hair and you’ll maybe yank it if there’s knots or anything. So it’s like, why don’t you let me do it, because I will sit and I’ll be patient with it. If your jewelry gets tangled, I’ll sit and unknot it. I can do the same thing with your hair. I don’t mind sitting and being patient and we can watch a show or do something.

Kayla: Oh yeah. The first few times you detangled my hair, we were watching Severance.

Kristen: We were.

Kayla: We would pop Severance on and you’re just going to town, detangling my hair, being so gentle with it. No one has ever treated my hair with the care you do — not even me!

And yeah, ever since, I’ve had less breakage. My hair has been growing even faster than it usually does, which is already pretty fast. You’ve introduced me to new products, told me how to use them. I think that was something that super surprised me because I was like, you take care of your hair, for sure, but you have such different hair than I do, and we don’t use the same products. You’re washing your hair way more than I wash my hair.

Kristen: I just have different hair than you and so I do have to wash it way more often. I like taking care of your hair, I like taking care of you. I’ll lotion you or give you hand massage or foot massage.

“i think i have to go to the store and get nail polish remover because i can’t handle this.”

Kayla: I mean, you definitely did this during lockdown, but still now you will do my nails. You’re great at painting nails. That’s another thing that you’re very good at.

Kristen: And I’ve never done that for me, ever.

Kayla: And I remember there was a time where you did both of our toenails? And you did your own because you were like, “I’m going to try it out.”

Kristen: And I hated it.

Kayla: You were so upset.

Kristen: We didn’t have any nail polish remover, and I was like, “I think I have to go to the store and get nail polish remover because I can’t handle this.”

Kayla: That was one of the most dysphoric times I think I’ve ever seen you.

Kristen: It felt bad.

Kayla: Yeah. It was red, so it was bold. But yeah, you were like, “I have to get this off of my toes.”

Kristen: It was strange because I didn’t anticipate that happening.

But I love painting your nails. I always think they look really pretty. You can’t really go do it anymore because you’re doing a lot of tennis, but you were going and getting manicures and I thought that always looked really nice. You have really nice hands.

Kayla: Thank you. Very gay of you to say.

“you know what’s going to look good on me, also what’s going to make me feel good”

Kayla: I do think it’s interesting because I love dressing up, I love being high femme and doing my makeup and having my nails done and all this stuff, but I don’t really like doing it myself.

I don’t like making choices all the time. We’ve given this piece a very over-the-top headline, but I think there’s something empowering about me being like, you know what?You see me better than I could ever see myself in a lot of literal ways. You’re looking at my face more than I ever look at my own face, but also you love me and you see me in the best possible light. You know what’s going to look good on me, also what’s going to make me feel good. You’re never going to buy me a dress that I feel uncomfortable in.

Kristen: I don’t buy you something purely because I like the way it looks. I buy it because I think that you’ll enjoy wearing it.

Kayla: Yes. You’ve never bought me something uncomfortable. I think there’s something almost empowering about the fact that I can rely on you to make these choices for me and treat me in these ways. Because then it results in I look my best and I don’t have to think about it or do it myself.

Kristen: Yeah. I mean, I always just want you to feel good.

Kayla: I know.

Kristen: I also do think it’s funny because you love to be pampered or have a spa treatment or something like that, which I never want. I don’t even go get my own hair cut. I hate it that much.

Kayla: Yeah. Please tell the folks at home how your hair gets cut.

Kristen: I’ve never felt more seen than watching New Girl and seeing Nick Miller say, “Getting a haircut is too intimate,” because I’ve said that for years.

Kayla: For years.

Kristen: For years, getting a haircut is too intimate. What I do is I trim the ends of my own hair, and that is what happens. I don’t want to go do that. My best friend is a massage therapist and she has never given me a massage because I was like, I definitely do not want that, but I massage you all the time and I’ll do your hair and do different stuff. I like watching videos of people getting facial treatments and having their hair done.

Kayla: See, I can’t do that. I have this weird tactile jealousy where if I watch someone else being massaged, I want to be massaged. I can’t watch it because I’m like, why is that not happening to me right now?

Kristen: So I think it ends up working out in that way — I love the idea of it, and I like doing it to you, but would never want someone to do that to me.And it makes me happy because, much like our sex life, I very much enjoy watching you be happy and pleased.

Kayla: Yeah, I mean, I guess this all just does go back to top/bottom dynamics. That’s all it is. An 8,000 word interview just to land on: I guess we’re just a top and a bottom!

Kristen: The classic scenario.