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Trans Men and Queer Women: Who's This Boy to Date?

Sebastian

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[Please note (8/15): Since writing this article, I have come to see that I made some assumptions about women that ultimately excluded trans women, which is not okay. There is a lot of discussion of this and other ways this line of thinking might affect trans women in the comments section. While I still stand by the overall theme of my post I think it is important to read the discussion of transphobia, transmisogyny, and cissexism that follows.]

"Well doesn’t that really limit your pool of potential women?"

Sitting at our favorite beer bar, this was my buddy’s response to my statement that I "didn’t want to date a lesbian." He had suggested that I take advantage of what he dubbed “my online pull” with queer women.

His comment stands out in my mind because it suggests that straight women don’t want to date a trans man (experience suggests this is not as true as most people assume) and, because regardless of the validity of that suggestion, he is right.

Let it be known that I am looking for a woman, or maybe for women? I’m looking to date. And dating isn’t easy. Meeting women isn’t easy. Why in god’s name would I want to limit my pool? Some non-trans guys have suggested that I’m lucky that y’all will even consider me as a possible partner.

I’m torn. Let me explain why I might not want to date someone who is mostly attracted to women.

I have really struggled to be seen as a man. In some ways it took two years, in others, it took 23. For most of my life I was seen as a woman and it was confusing, and something was always missing. And over the past two years, I have felt the pain of knowing I’m a man and still being seen as a woman. It’s taken medical interventions and social adaptations to get where I am now, to be free of the pain of being seen as female. And that may sound dramatic, but hell it is dramatic. It is really painful. A kind of pain I’d never known before.

As I blog and write about trans stuff (and work with my boss who consults with schools on issues of gender and sexuality diversity), one of the things I am constantly reiterating is that my trans status and history do not necessarily make me any less of a man or a different kind of man than a non-trans man. I do this because want to be out as transgender and still be seen as a man. I educate because affirmation is one of our few weapons against the pain.

A major source of affirmation of any kind is in our relationships. Your partner reminds you of strengths and beauty even when the rest of the world doesn’t see them – even when you don’t. I mean, who hasn’t put “I’ll Be Your Mirror” on a love mix? My relationships as a man have been much fuller than those I had when I was a woman. They felt better. Because I was so affirmed as a man, because a woman loved me as a man.

And I think I’m pretty terrified of losing that.

I fear that my gender identity can’t be affirmed in the way that I need in a relationship with a woman who mostly prefers/is attracted to women. Sexually, too, it is really important to me and to my sanity that a woman physically engages with me as a man. I know this is complicated because my body is different from a non-trans man’s, but I think it is the attitude I’m looking for. If I at all feel like a woman is viewing her physical encounter with me as one with another female, I can’t enjoy it – it makes me feel awful.

All that said, here is where I call myself on my bullshit. And I do so after thinking about this HARD for weeks.

Because yeah, I need to be seen as a man and yeah I need to be fucked as a man and loved as a man. But where do I get off suggesting that queer-women who-mostly-date-women wouldn’t see me this way?

I guess my thinking has always been that if a woman isn’t attracted to non-trans men but is attracted to me, it must have to do with my gender. I automatically assume she is differentiating between the manness of non-trans men and the manness of trans man me.

In reality there are some things that do differentiate me from non-trans men that have nothing to do with how much of a man I am.

A woman named Jessica recently wrote in a comment on Autostraddle that “something that is attractive to some of us gay/queer girls is the fact that although we are in no case saying you are not men, the struggle you went through to have the people surrounding you accept that you are men does make you different from cisgender males, in that they never had to even think about gender theory in general and know nothing about queer matters.”

Now I’ll say there are plenty of straight non-trans men who know about gender theory and queer matters, but most don’t. And most trans men do.

Also, this reminded me that something that makes me different from non-trans men is that I transitioned (seems obvious now that I’ve written it out…). That I went through some tough shit to be true to myself. People are always throwing words at me like courageous, honest, brave, admirable. I don’t claim all of them, but certainly the self-awareness and struggle that comes with transition are things that all trans men necessarily have experienced.

Also, I lived as a girl. As silly as it sounds, I know what PMS is like. I know what the other end of male privilege feels like. Non-trans men can’t really know these things.

And how about the fact that I know what women’s sexual bodies feel like to them? I’ve got a better sense than non-trans men of how women are feeling in bed.

Another thing: I was socialized as a girl and young woman. This doesn’t impact the masculinity or macho-ness of some trans men, but I feel totally comfortable saying that I personally am a softer dude than I would have been if I’d been raised male. If anything, because I’ve traversed the gender binary and all its boundaries and I can see how ridiculous and unnatural the rules of masculinity are. I see how dumb it is that men often stifle emotions or act certain ways just because society expects them to. Yeah, I am gonna talk about my feelings. And I’m going to be honest when I’m scared. And I’m gonna show affection to the girls I’m interested in. (This is not to say that non-trans men don’t do these things or don’t see the ridiculousness of rules of masculinity – I know guys that do… but I do think they aren’t as easy to find. Also worth noting is that not all trans men are like this. Again, I am only speaking about my experience, etc.)

There's a quote floating around the blogosphere that illustrates this. It's from Mercedes Allen's essay in Gender Outlaws: The Next Generation:

Transgender people have wisdom and experience that our friends, family, and acquaintances never dreamed of. A woman can talk to her female-to-male (FTM) partner and know that he really does understand the beautification and competition crap that girls are fed when they are growing up. A man can trust that his MTF partner understands the ruthless repression of emotions that were imposed upon him through his youth, maybe enough to allow himself to be more emotionally vulnerable in front of her. Those of us who have lived in two genders have a front-row view of the battle of the sexes, with a vivid understanding of what hormones do to our moods, of how differently men and women are perceived and treated in public venues, of the pervasiveness of male privilege, of how different dating as male is from dating as female, even if the gender of attraction doesn’t change. Those perspectives are hard-won. It would be a shame to bury them.

I guess what I’m saying is that I’m starting to realize that although a woman who typically likes women being attracted to me does usually mean that she is differentiating between me and non-trans men, it doesn’t mean that that differentiation has anything to do with my gender. Her being attracted to my sensitivity or the inner growth I gained through transition or her being more comfortable with me because I’ve been a guy’s girlfriend before and know what privilege and power feel like or because I’m more aware of queerdom than most straight non-trans men…. these things do not mean she is not affirming me as a man.

I’ve been wrong to cut lesbian/lesbian-leaning queer women out of my pool of potential partners. It was out of fear and misunderstanding. Now, I continue to be completely uninterested in women who are attracted to me because they see me as straddling two genders (the “best of both worlds” argument), because I’m not, and you being attracted to me that way feels really bad to me. But it seems there are loads of other reasons (and I don't mean this in a cocky "God's gift to women" sort of way) you might want to date me, sleep with me, make out with me under the stars.

And these reasons, these differences from non-trans men are things I should be proud of, things I should be happy to celebrate with any woman who values and is attracted to them.

So to those of you who identify as gay and wrote in asking if your attraction to a trans man was offensive or inappropriate, my answer is no, even if this trans man identifies the way I do and is "all man" sotospeak. And if you want to move forward, my advice is to be clear about what it is that attracts you to him, so that he is sure to understand that you as a potential partner (of any level) are affirming his gender.

Special Note: Autostraddle's "First Person" columns exist for individual queer ladies to tell their own personal stories and share compelling experiences. These personal essays do not reflect the ideals of Autostraddle or its editors, nor do any First Person writers intend to speak on behalf of anyone other than themselves. First Person writers are simply speaking honestly from their own hearts.

264 responses to “Trans Men and Queer Women: Who's This Boy to Date?”

  1. Paper0Flowers

    I dunno, Sebastian, you might be selling yourself short by not claiming your status as “God’s gift to women” =P

    This was a really cool article. I’ve thought about this issue actually as it relates to trans people, and at least from my perspective, I can definitely see why empathy would be very attractive. I mean, you’re a dude, but you get us, and that’s such an important thing. And sometimes that’s all a girl really needs – someone who understands.

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  2. Ginasf

    Thanks for the thoughtful essay on a complex topic. Here’s one of my issues with it (the topic, not your essay). I’m a trans woman (who is, incidentally, attracted to men and don’t really consider myself innately queer). But I’ve seen many cissexual queer women who were attracted to trans men but not to queer-ID’d trans women.

    Yes, I understand the line about being attracted to one’s “struggle for personhood” and understanding your partner’s gendered context and struggles, but I have to also say that for those cis-women who completely dismiss trans women from their dating plates, that rings hollow and a justification. For me, what remains is their innate belief that, somewhere, somehow, you’re still who you’re assigned at birth and supposedly socialized as and it isn’t going to change.

    I DON’T begrudge anyone their dating preferences and attractions which are personal and no one should have to justify those. But I do have issues with people trying to make a political statement out of their attraction to one gender of trans people while pretty much dismissing another. I know it also becomes more complicated when someone in a queer woman couple comes out as a trans man. The partner is left in a potentially confusing space (which, btw, virtually never happens in supposedly gay male relationships when a one of them transitions MTF… I’ve never, ever heard one last the blink of an eye).

    I also want to say to cis people that telling a potential trans partner “you know what it’s like to be a (fill in the blank birth sex)” can be a negating statement to many trans people. Just because we’ve lived in a socially assigned birth gender doesn’t mean we were socialized nor have ever perceived ourselves as a ‘typical male or female’ nor that we automatically ‘understand’ what our birth genders go through. That is an over-simplification and if you’re making dating decisions on that one, you might want to explore your potential partner more closely and ask them their reality rather than relying on assumptions.

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    1. trans guy

      this is such a great comment, spot on! I too have met lesbian identified women who will date cis women and trans men but not trans women or cis men – problematic much?

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    2. bra

      This! I id as a lesbian had (sexy) relations and dated trans women because they were interesting/nice/attractive and OMFG THE BACKLASH!! Yet these same lesbians giving me shit dated (and some only) dated trans men. I was confused because the last time I checked I was attracted to women, trans women are women so…what the hell?

      I had to distance myself from them to do what I please. Anyway I had to get that off my chest because I could not find a safe space to talk about it without that bs happening. Also thank you for bringing up that point about the dismissiveness that some queer/lesbian women have towards trans women.

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      1. Desiree Gales

        Thanks I really appreciate the comment as a t-woman

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    3. Steph

      “But I’ve seen many cissexual queer women who were attracted to trans men but not to queer-ID’d trans women”

      Until recently, I would have considered myself one of those cissexal queer woman – and I felt very conflicted about it. But recently i realized a few things.

      1)As expressed in the Mercedes Allen quote and like Sebastian suggested, my attraction to trans men is NOT because I don’t see them as men, but because differences in experience and socialization.

      2)I actually AM attracted to some trans women, I’m just not as attracted to super femme trans women (Because I am not as attracted to super femme women, in general)

      3) Likewise, I would not be attracted to super macho trans men, because I’m not attracted to super macho men.

      This response is really not as well worded or articulate as I would like it to be, but hopefully the point gets across. Thanks for another great, thought provoking article, Sebastian.

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      1. Jessica

        ^ ^
        This !

        I am attracted to both cis-gender men and women, and to trans men… But I don’t find myself attracted to trans women, or at least haven’t found myself attracted to them yet.

        I don’t believe this is being prejudiced in any way – I just so happen to like women who are on the more masculine end of the spectrum… And all the trans women I’ve met were highly feminine, or at least femmy. But I am attracted to butches. If I were to meet a butchy trans woman I found attractive, I would however date her in the blink of an eye, no questions ask !

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        1. ginasf

          Jessica, I understand different locales have differing ‘quantities and varieties’ of trans people in them, but I can assure you there are many non-femme trans women who ID as queer. It’s a difficult identity to have since people make huge assumptions about trans women who ID as butch just as they make about ‘effeminate’ trans guys. But I do feel this assumption that ‘all trans women are femme’ is used as an excuse by many in the queer womens community when other things are really going on. And I’m saying that in a general sense, not to dismiss your experience or preferences.

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        2. difficiledame

          I know some pretty hawt butchly trans women. Just saying.

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          1. difficiledame

            After thinking about this comment, I missed what should have been said.

            Saying that all trans women are feminine is a generalization, inaccurate, and comes off like an excuse. Also, as I’ve stated above, it’s a good idea to check how we’re looking at femininity.

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            1. Jessica

              Yeah, re-reading my comment I realise it was stupid an poorly worded. I guess that as I wrote it I was realising that what I was saying wasn’t exactly true and that I forgot to write down the conclusion of my thought process, which was : I shouldn’t have wrote that.

              I am attracted to butch women, cis or MAAB.
              I haven’t knowingly met any MAAB butch lesbian/bi women, but it’s probably just bad luck or a matter of numbers, and the fact that the lesbian/bi community here is so small surely hasn’t helped… Nor has it with my small-mindedness apparently.

              What I want to say is that I apologize for my previous comment.

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        3. Jessica

          I guess I’ve just been unlucky you guys ;)

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      2. difficiledame

        The line between preference and prejudice (that sounds like an awesome novel) is really tricky in my mind.

        Am I bigot because I don’t want to have sex with everyone who ever lived? No. Then again, when I make a blanket exclusion of any group of people without giving much thought to it I have to flag that and work on it. Like, sometimes I have to check my reaction to stereotypically feminine folks because I’ve realized that it’s internalized mysogyny and it’s my shit and is in no way fair to whoever I’m projecting it onto.

        All that said, I’ve taken the habit of expressing my preferences in a positive rather than exclusionary manner. I am a total fag. I love macho queers. I dig effeminate dudes. Not “I just don’t like X group of people.”

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    4. annika

      This hasn’t been my experience at all. Count me in as a queer trans girl with no shortage of love from queer/lesbian cis women :)

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      1. Julia

        I know you are aware of the significance of the issue, from what you’ve written before, so you must realise “passing privilege” plays a role here. Though I’m glad that’s not been your experience.

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      2. Quinn Riot

        Also, I was under the impression that you are in a monogamous relationship that started before you transitioned? (If I’m wrong, I apologize)

        Pretty much the issue everyone is talking about here is dating. Often people will respect trans people in every visible way but still not consider them viable sexual or romantic partners.

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        1. annika

          We’re poly :)

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          1. Quinn Riot

            Oh, well then. :)

            I am happy that you haven’t faced discrimination in this area, but, while I’m sure it isn’t your intention, I feel that comments like the one above kind of erase the experiences of people who do experience discrimination.

            Definitely there are people who don’t discriminate against trans people when it comes to sex and dating, and it’s important to acknowledge that! But I feel like when you point out that you don’t experience discrimination, without mentioning that other people do, it can look like you are saying that the discrimination doesn’t exist, and that’s kind of a problem! Especially since some people are going to generalize your experiences because of the role you have on this site, no matter how much you try to prevent that.

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            1. annika

              I’ve always tried to make it clear that I’m only speaking from my personal experiences. That being said, I’m not denying that there is a lot of romantic discrimination against trans women. But it’s not ubiquitous, and it’s not something that has happened to me.

              I am well aware of my privilege and I recognize that my experience of transition is far from the norm. I’ve never once had to deal with hurtful/threatening/inappropriate comments (about me being trans) when out in public. Does that make my experience any less real?

              I’m really careful to not make sweeping generalizations about the trans* community, and I would never want to erase the experiences of others. I just don’t think that every single time I mention a positive experience that I have, I need to qualify it with “but other people have negative experiences.”

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              1. Lucy

                Much love for Annika on this comment. Here’s the thing, though: in my personal experience (lulz), I always, always, ALWAYS have to state things, even things I feel shouldn’t need to be stated. I’ve found that it’s a stricter requirement when discussing anything of substance with a run-of-the-mill ciswhitedude, and began to believe that dude privilege includes the assumption that people will take what you say at face value and not read things into it, i.e., if a straight dude says “I like to fuck blond girls” he can expect that he will not be called out by other dudes for discrimination against other hair colors. I’ve even started calling out certain cismales I know when they leave things unsaid — if only to point out how they never give me the benefit of the doubt in similar situations.

                Anyway, my point mostly was that it is indeed exhausting to have to keep qualifying statements I make.

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          2. Betty Oh

            Annika,

            I realize you must be busy and have specific things you like to write about, but I would love to read your thoughts/experiences on being poly in a trans*/non binary/queer relationship. If that’s something you’re comfortable talking more about :)

            XOXO,
            Betty

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            1. riese

              me too!

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            2. annika

              Ok! It’s definitely something I’m interested in writing about- but for a later date, when I have more material <3

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    5. Julia

      Great comment!

      I’d like to second your last point, as well: although I think we can gain unconventional insights, growing up trans, I couldn’t say I know what it’s like to grow up as a cis-male or a cis-female.

      Even if you are treated as a cis-male, for example, you know you are not, and that changes the whole nature of the message. You may inadvertantly benefit from it, but it’s traumatic. Ironically the quantifiable stuff, like the impact of different hormones, is especially so.

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    6. musingvirtual

      Count me in from the other side of that privilege. I’m a genderqueer femme; I date cis, trans, and genderqueer people, most of whom would attach the suffix “woman” to that label and many of whom would use the word femme to describe themselves. I cannot tell you how much shit and invisibilizing I get within the “lesbian” community and especially from young masculine-of-center female-assigned-at-birth people. I feel like I’ve had to distance myself from both lesbian and genderqueer communities because they look down on me, and the activists I get along with the most are trans women and their allies.

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    7. Paige

      I am a gay woman attracted strictly to women. To me, this seems clear and simple. As much shit as I may catch I cannot separate the fact that sex (the act) has so much to do with my relationships.

      Sex, as an act, can only occur with other women for me. In other words, both biologically and socio-culturally my partner has to identify as female. I do not intend to sound close-minded or judgmental. I have many trans friends, but trans individuals are outside the limits of my attraction.

      Another reason that seems blatantly clear to me has to do with exactly what attracts other lesbians TO trans men and women: my struggle. I struggled for my entire life with my sexuality, and then for years to learn acceptance of myself as an out gay woman. To date a cisman or transman would completely rework my personal identity and what I have worked so long to build and accept: my life as a gay woman. Similarly, to date a transwoman would interfere with my ability to see myself as a strong butch woman, on the expectation that I would have to interact with (biologically) male genitalia.

      I apologize to those this post may offend, I do not mean to judge or patronize those who are open to partners I am not. I simply feel that it is a blatant overgeneralization to assume that queer women as a whole are attracted to transmen.

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  3. HannahRhoslyn

    This was a very interesting article Sebastian, thank you.

    Lately, I’ve been experiencing a really strong interest in this trans guy I know, and I’ve had a lot of trouble understanding that in myself, and explaining it to my friends. I do see him as a guy, but I don’t feel the discomfort (even to the point of being afraid) that I do at the thought of sleeping with a cis-guy. I think it’s as you say: even a trans guy who has always been strongly masculine of centre still knows about how the world treats women, and queer people.

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    1. trans guy

      “even a trans guy who has always been strongly masculine of centre still knows about how the world treats women, and queer people.”

      this isn’t always necessarily true. it depends when they transitioned. some young trans guys were actually raised and socialized as male. I met someone recently who essentially came out when he was 3-4 years old and had very supportive parents. he was never raised as female and began physical transition at puberty. he is now 17 and has completely transitioned physically (although he never needed top surgery, he has had bottom surgery)

      also, I have a problem with the implication that a cis guy can’t really understand how the world treats women and queer people. what about a queer cis guy? what about a guy who was raised by gay parents? or a guy raised by a single mother?

      by this argument, then white people shouldn’t date people of color because white people have no understanding of what people of color go through

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      1. Paper0Flowers

        I have a hard time befriending guys (in this case, cis, since I only have like 5 lol), and they’re all very sensitive and emotional guys. My bf is my best friend, and the only reason why we clicked is because he was raised in a house-filled with strong feminists, so I don’t feel that gender-barrier in our relationship because he understands women and respects them.

        Empathetic cis-guys are out there, but I’ve found only a few enough to befriend.

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      2. novastar

        Ok, but um, people of color choosing to not date white people because of the privilege they experience is completely legit.

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        1. Tiger Gray

          I agree to a point. I have trouble with cismen a lot of the time because they’re often carrying around a lot of assumptions about their rights in the world and how much influence they’re allowed to have over my identity. (“well /I/ see you as a woman…” or whatever)I don’t think a cisman CAN’T understand. I’m a writer and have to believe that we’re all capable of reaching across the chasm and taking one another’s hands. I like to think I walk around being open to that and am more than willing to be surprised by people. But being in relationships with men remains really fucking uncomfortable and painful.

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      3. riese

        also, I have a problem with the implication that a cis guy can’t really understand how the world treats women and queer people. what about a queer cis guy? what about a guy who was raised by gay parents? or a guy raised by a single mother?

        I don’t understand why it’s problematic to say that only people who have had a certain experience knows how that experience feels or that someone who hasn’t had that experience can claim equivalent understanding of it. a cis guy who was raised by gay parents would know what it feel like to be a cis guy raised by gay parents, but he wouldn’t know what it felt like to be gay unless he was gay.

        i mean, obviously people can understand and empathize and listen and immerse themselves in someone else’s world, but living the experience yourself is far more powerful than anything you could observe or hear about. my mom is a lesbian but i don’t know how it feels to be a lesbian mom. my first girlfriend was filipina and my stepbrother is black but I don’t know how it feels to be a queer masculine-of-center filipina or a straight cis black man. all i can really understand inside-and-out is what i myself have experienced. that doesn’t mean i can’t date people different than me, but it does mean that “understanding what it feels like to be a woman” is a definite bonus to a relationship, though not a requirement by any means. socially, i’m more likely to befriend a cis feminist man raised by a single mother or gay parents and he will understand my life MORE than someone raised more traditionally. But he won’t understand it EXACTLY.

        my family and relationships deepen and enrich my understanding of the world and my ability to empathize and participate in productive dialogue about others’ experiences, but — AHEM I AM GOING TO QUOTE ANI DIFRANCO NOW;

        there are some things that you can’t know
        unless you’ve been there
        but oh how far we could go
        if we started to share
        I don’t need to tell you
        what it is about
        you just start on the inside
        and work your way out

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        1. trans guy

          “I don’t understand why it’s problematic to say that only people who have had a certain experience knows how that experience feels”

          When did I ever say they would know how that experience feels? I never said that, I specifically said UNDERSTAND. they can UNDERSTAND and have empathy

          notice:

          “also, I have a problem with the implication that a cis guy can’t really understand how the world treats women and queer people. what about a queer cis guy? what about a guy who was raised by gay parents? or a guy raised by a single mother?”

          My words are really being misconstrued. I was stating that a cis guy can understand how the world treats women and queer people. That isn’t to say he knows what it FEELS like but you can have an understanding of something that you haven’t experienced firsthand

          And cis men do experience gender and hegemonic masculinity and the limitations of it. My brother was small and skinny and “feminine” growing up and he struggled every day in middle school and high school being beat up and tortured. he got called gay, got picked on constantly. why? because he didn’t meet the rigid standards of masculinity that boys are expected to meet. these suffocating expectations that our society places on boys.. this is hegemonic masculinity and the patriarchy at work and he was effected by it firsthand. it’s not the same experience that say a queer woman would face in high school, but it’s the same structural powers at work

          And in relation to trans people, trans folk don’t have singular experiences. There are trans people who were raised and socialized as their correct gender (ie people who transition at extremely young ages). They have different lived experiences. And someone who transitions at age 20 has a different experience than someone who transitioned at age 40 or 50.. There are also people who transitioned who don’t identify as trans and would really feel invalidated by being placed in a separate category from cis men

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          1. riese

            oh, ok. the thing is that in the article he’s referring specifically (i thought), to the fact that someone who has been perceived as a woman for a good portion of their life has a greater understanding of it than someone who hasn’t. and i thought that’s the part of the post that your comment was responding to.

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            1. trans guy

              ohh ok, just a simple misunderstanding then. i really just wanted to point out that there is a lot men experience in terms of gender that shouldn’t be overlooked – gendered experiences that are painful and limiting..and i’m not comparing them to issues women face (because you can’t compare them) and i’m not at all saying that cis men can know how that feels, just saying that cis men can and do have an understanding of gender issues

              interestingly, one of the biggest struggles i’ve faced post-transition is navigating these rigid masculine expectations. before i was viewed by society as male there was a lot more i could do in terms of expressing myself, now i have to be very careful especially in certain spaces with how i behave and i find it very limiting. personally i know a lot of cis men who i talk to about this and who hate these gendered expectations and work to dismantle them.

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              1. riese

                yeah that totally makes sense — and yeah, it’s not comparable to the issues women face but there’s definitely shit going down on both sides. i remember when i was a kid, my little brother cried a lot and this was like a huge deal. and i would always think i was glad that i wasn’t a boy because when i cried, people hugged me, and when my brother cried, he got made fun of. and that was just one of the first things i noticed as a kid, obviously that experience added to others.

                and i think there are for sure a lot of rigid masculine expectations that are bad for men and for women, and the reason those don’t get talked about enough could be because it’s posited by opportunists as a convo we should have INSTEAD of the women-deal-with-sexism conversations, when no — like you said, these gendered expectations need to be dismantled on both sides, and that’s not instead of women’s issues, but in addition to women’s issues. and ultimately expanding those expectation helps us all in the end.

                i don’t know if i make sense anymore. but yeah! i agree with you, is all

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              2. Lily

                I want the thumbs up button back. I love this whole dialogue.

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              3. Laneia

                and THIS is how you have a productive conversation on the internet.

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            2. Travis

              Except, you are still making assumptions. I transitioned in my early 30s, and was perceived as female for those thirty-some years before, but I still had to learn what most women go through in terms of sexism, harrassment, etc. and the messages that most women receive re: what is appropriate for women, by reading about it on the internet, because I never had that experience. I wasn’t socialised as a guy, and I didn’t think of myself as male, but neither do I have first-hand experience and understanding of what most women go through.

              So yeah. If you find an individual trans guy and know for sure that they experienced X or Y, that’s totally cool to like that about them. But stop assuming that there is some monolithic female experience that all people who were assigned female at birth went through.

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              1. riese

                i don’t think anybody’s doing that, we’re just commenting on sebastian’s experience as he defined it in his piece and qualified as just his experience. i’d never assume a “monolithic female experience that all people who were assigned female at birth went through” — that would be absurd. i don’t think i said anything like that in this conversation… i’d say right back atcha –don’t assume that anyone who doesn’t explicitly state their assumption of “a monolithic female experience that all people who were assigned female at birth went through” is making that assumption. yannow?

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              2. Travis

                Okay, maybe you were referring to only Sebastian, but it is indeed a statement people make about all trans men. And while someone mentioned above that some guys are transitioning earlier and earlier, I wanted to clarify that even if you transition later, it doesn’t mean that you have first-hand knowledge of X or Y.

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        2. Lily

          THIS. And I love that song.

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    2. Anon

      It’s great that the trans guy you know doesn’t make you uncomfortable or afraid. Also, there’s nothing wrong with queer women dating trans men… or non-trans men for that matter. The one thing that makes me uncomfortable with this article and much of this discussion is the suggestion that this has to do with a quality somehow intrinsic to trans men.

      I was abused by a trans man. A friend of mine was sexually assaulted by another trans man. I also knew a trans man who sexually harassed a lot of people at his work.

      Did they know what it was like to be treated like a woman? Did they know how misogyny hurts women? I would guess so. But that did not deter them from perpetrating violence against women. It’s possible trans men are less likely than cis men to be violent, but I don’t have any reason to assume that.

      I don’t mean to paint such a bleak picture, I know plenty of really amazing trans men as well. But I don’t like the suggestion that trans men are inherently safe. It invalidates my experience as a survivor, but more importantly I worry that when someone assumes that those around them cannot be abusive then it is that much harder identifying inappropriate behavior when it happens. Not that anyone is saying that directly, but it seems to be underneath a lot of this sentiment.

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      1. Cece

        I don’t think the article implies that trans men are inherenty safe at all. Also let’s not forget that women aren’t inherently safe or non-violent. Women commit acts of violence and sexual assault as well. I was violently assaulted by a cis woman.. I also met a man who is a survivor and he was assaulted by his wife (she verbally abused him for years and it culminated in her stabbing him in the chest, he nearly died)

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        1. Anon

          “Not that anyone is saying that directly, but it seems to be underneath a lot of this sentiment.”

          And yes, there is no gender that is free from violence. The same could be said for almost any group.

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  4. another trans guy

    “Also worth noting is that not all trans men are like this. Again, I am only speaking about my experience, etc.”

    I’m glad you noted this in your article. I really enjoyed your article, but personally, as a guy who transitioned, didn’t relate to most of it. It felt like a very personal account

    I noticed in your article you mostly talk about “queer women” instead of “lesbians”.

    here’s what I don’t understand. why would you cut out queer women? I have plenty of cis male friends who date queer women (some ID as queer themselves, others do not)

    I understand why you wouldn’t want to date LESBIANS but a woman who identifies as queer or sexually fluid, now that doesn’t make sense to me

    You also talk about being different from cis men because transition made you go “through some tough shit to be true to myself”

    I’m not comparing transition to anything here, but it almost sounded a little patronizing to cis folks. There are other things that are different, but also very tough that people go through that force them to be true to themselves and make them more sensitive people.

    One of my good friends is a cis male (who prefers women) yet he is one of the queerest and most sensitive people I know, who went through some shit in his life that most of us can’t imagine and is just as self aware as I am (as a guy who went through transition) except that how he got to where he is was a bit different. He was sexually abused as a child and overcame that, he was also raised by a single mom and saw the struggles that she went through as a woman firsthand. he’s one of the best people I know and I just think it’s sounds patronizing to imply that trans men are more self aware than cis men

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    1. Paper0Flowers

      I think the difference between your cis-male friends dating queer women and Sebastian dating a queer woman is that your cis-male friends don’t have to assert their gender in society – they’re dudes to everyone in society, and who they date does not change their gender. A trans-man, on the other hand, has to deal with a lot of misunderstanding and fear from society at large, and thus has a different struggle in gender assertion with his romantic partners.

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      1. another trans guy

        plenty of trans guys don’t have to assert their gender in society 99.9% of the time. ask a guy who has been physically transitioned for 10 years the last time he wasn’t seen as male in society or given male privilege. he’ll probably say, 10 years ago. yes, trans people do face a lot of misunderstanding and fear from society at large, but this is really only when trans* status is known. people who aren’t out as trans or maybe don’t identify as trans and transitioned physically largely do not deal with this. I say this as someone in that position. the last time I felt unsafe or ridiculed because of my gender was before I transitioned and in the very beginning of my physical transition. In society because of the way I look right now, I am seen as a cis male because people associate trans folk with androgyny or physically appearing ambiguously gendered. the way I look nobody would question my maleness or identity, it’s only when I looked ambiguous or when I out myself as trans that this becomes an issue. I’m not trying to downplay this issue because it is huge, but it’s really not something I deal with ever at this point and I know a lot of trans guys who would say the same thing. We still do receive lots of male privilege and that’s not something to overlook. I have to deal with my male privilege in the same way cis men do

        I have friends who are very masculine lesbians and friends who are gender queer – the shit that they deal with every fucking day astounds me and breaks my heart. I never have to deal with anything they do because I am seen as a cis male.

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        1. Julia

          “I have friends who are very masculine lesbians and friends who are gender queer – the shit that they deal with every fucking day astounds me and breaks my heart. I never have to deal with anything they do because I am seen as a cis male.”

          Thanks for this: I wish it got acknowleged more. Even my queer colleagues at work don’t want to talk about it.

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        2. Paper0Flowers

          Okay, those are all valid points, and I’m not going to argue against them. However – Sebastian’s situation is when people *do* know that he’s trans (presumably by the point when he’s involved with someone romantically). So, as an openly trans-man, he has different things to consider when dating people than either a cis-man or someone who isn’t as vocal about his trans* status.

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  5. Rhea

    Overall, I liked this piece. I’m glad to see you’re secure enough in your masculinity to suss out this interesting liminal space in sexuality and gender identity.

    There was on section that stood out as problematic:

    “Also, I lived as a girl. As silly as it sounds, I know what PMS is like. I know what the other end of male privilege feels like. Non-trans men can’t really know these things.

    And how about the fact that I know what women’s sexual bodies feel like to them? I’ve got a better sense than non-trans men of how women are feeling in bed.

    Another thing: I was socialized as a girl and young woman.”

    If you find this helpful for you as a man Sebastian, by all means own it.

    However, I will say that this line of thought, in reverse, is the kind of rationalization that marginalizes trans women from being part of the queer female community. In particular the ‘socialization’ argument.

    I dunno, maybe this line of reasoning would make sense trans woman were dating otherwise queer men, except that almost never happens because we aren’t really accepted there either.

    My apologies if this comes off as too acerbic.

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    1. C

      I agree that the inability to empathize rather than just sympathize shouldn’t make someone unworthy of inclusion. There are plenty of people AFAB, like me, who have never experienced painful menstrual cramps, discrimination on the job, or domestic violence, and thus can’t empathize with women who have experienced those things either. But that doesn’t mean people aren’t allowed to have their preferences. The question is, is it possible to have preferences without disrespecting the identities of people who don’t meet the criteria for your dating preferences? If you’re only dismissing people based strictly on a specific set of criteria that applies equally to everybody, it absolutely is possible.

      The problem is, not everybody is perfectly honest with others (or even themselves) about the nature of their criteria. If you’re a queer person just not into male-typical genitalia, there’s no reason not to just be honest about it and say so. I myself have a strong preference for masculine bodies and male-typical genitalia, and I’m not ashamed to admit that I can’t see myself ever dating a trans person. But for people with an obvious bias, it has less to do with genitalia than it does with preconceptions about how they like to define people by their past more than their current identity, which really doesn’t respect how much people can change and evolve and grow. Personally, I wouldn’t really want to be with someone who saw me that way.

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      1. Dee

        “I myself have a strong preference for masculine bodies and male-typical genitalia, and I’m not ashamed to admit that I can’t see myself ever dating a trans person.”

        I think this is problematic (possibly). Why wouldn’t you ever date a trans person? You do realize that plenty of trans men have masculine bodies and male typical genitalia, right? In fact I know many trans men who are much more masculine than the cis men I know (in terms of both bodies and masculine energy)

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        1. C

          If I should come across a man like that, then I’d probably be inclined to at least give him a chance. But I’m just not someone who believes excluding someone from your dating pool for any specific reason you want is transphobic or even unjustified.

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  6. Damascus

    I would just like to say to the transwomen commenters, that I am a queer woman who is attracted to transwomen as well as transmen.

    I think sexuality is kind of incomprehensible sometimes, and rarely politically correct. There are some women who *really are* just attracted to transmen and ciswomen. And then there are some cis men who *really are* just attracted to transwomen, and they get called chasers. I don’t know how to explain this, but I don’t think anyone should be ashamed of their attractions, and that everyone ought to make a better effort to see transfollk as their real gender.

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    1. thoughts

      so you don’t think it’s problematic that most of the women who are into cis women and trans men are only into pre-op or non-op bottom surgery guys?

      this is something I’ve noticed. they like trans guys but mainly ones who are early in transition (not super hairy and masculine looking) and ones that have not had bottom surgery

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      1. novastar

        It’s probably problematic in a relationship, but as one of those women to whom you are referring, I have a hard time apologizing for the people I happen to like. I can’t do anything about it, other than message Sebastian and try to process that shit.

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        1. ray

          how do you even know who has had bottom surgery? is it like you meet someone and you only like them if they tell you they don’t have a dick? i don’t get it

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          1. novastar

            Oh, um, not that part. I wouldn’t be able to tell/wouldn’t give a fuck. Genitalia has zero to do with interest for me.

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      2. reply to thoughts

        I think that this is the problem with politicizing our attractions and sexualities too much. When we are attracted to someone, it’s usually for a whole bunch of reasons including: gender identity, gender presentation, body parts, etc.

        I’m a cis girl and my girlfriend is a trans woman who has not had bottom surgery. She transitioned during our relationship. I was never really attracted to women before and had only dated cis men. All of the men I had ever dated were very femme (no thank you to big muscles or body hair). I love my girlfriend as a woman. I have sex with her as a woman. There is nothing manly about her whatsoever. And yes, I prefer her genitals as they are. I reject the biological essentialism that says that in order to be attracted to a woman I have to be attracted to vaginas. I would probably not date a cis woman, a trans man who has not had bottom surgery, a trans woman who has had bottom surgery, or a genderqueer person with genitals that are different than the kind I usually like to play with. I say probably because I recognize that sexuality is fluid, that our attractions can surprise us, and because I didn’t foresee myself dating any kind of woman a few years ago.

        I’m queer but not pansexual. So, I don’t think there’s anything problematic with me having specific attractions. I think the important thing for a cis partner of a trans person is not their gender pattern of attractions but their ability to be 100% affirming of their partner’s identity.

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    2. Creatrix Tiara

      Re cis men primarily attracted to trans women: This performance from Ben McCoy is particularly illuminating (and heartbreaking): http://vimeo.com/25944352

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      1. ginasf

        While I think Ms. McCoy’s performance is powerful, pointed and has a lot to say, I need to rebuff her statement that, “statistics show that 4 out of 5 trans women have been or are sexworkers.” I don’t know where she got that ‘statistic’ but it’s absolutely false and pretty much pulled out of her *ss. And I say that as someone who supports sexworker’s rights and value… but trans women are a hell of a lot more diverse than she presents. And that intrinsically connecting trans women to sex work (especially in an unsubstantiated way) impacts trans women getting employment and housing. For instance, I formerly taught 2nd and 3rd graders and her little ‘statistic’ is a one of the reasons why trans women get fired from such jobs. Sorry for the thread derail.

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  7. Janis Bing

    >>this comment is slightly off track because I do like some men sometimes so yeah, I don’t have much to say on the subject even though your article was really great<<

    I really do think anyone can get insight into gender & queer theory in different ways, whether they're trans/nonheterosexual or not. Everyone experiences society's expectations and rules w/r/t gender and orientation. Cisgender boys are taught not to cry or talk about their feelings too much etc etc.

    And all of this to say that it's not so much about who you are or have been perceived as in your life, but how much you're willing to think about stuff and question stuff. (Much like any kind of privilege be it gender-related, socioeconomical, racial or otherwise)

    Using your brain. It's a *sexy* thing, in a nutshell!

    Also you like HTDW so you're an obviously super cool dude.

    Great article, as usual!

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  8. dragon_snap

    Dear Sebastian,

    I have very much enjoyed reading your articles on Autostraddle and your tumblr, and in general am I big fan of yours.

    I really really liked this article and your analysis about the ways you might be differentiated from a cis man in a nonetheless gender-affirming way.

    It was thoughtful, insightful and presented an interesting and valuable perspective; and it was very well written too!

    However, I was a hurt and upset by your conflation of ‘queer women’ and ‘women who aren’t attracted to non-trans men but are attracted to some trans men’. Some queer women aren’t attracted at all to men. Some queer women (apparently) are attracted to some trans men but no cis men. And some queer women are attracted to lots of men, both cis and trans. In my firmly held belief, being attracted to men, romantically and/or sexually, does not make a queer woman any less or more queer. As far as I’m concerned, being a woman who likes women makes one a queer woman (obvs. if you are a woman who likes woman, but you don’t like to use the word ‘queer’ to describe yourself, then I wouldn’t force it upon you – self-identification trumps, etc.). To rephrase in slightly more personal terms: I am bisexual/pansexual and I am 100% queer, and I get upset when it’s implied (or explicitly stated) that these are mutually exclusive states of being.

    This conflation that was made (either unintentionally or intentionally) was further upsetting to me, since as a queer person attracted to all genders who wants to be affirming to any potential future trans/trans* partner(s), I have wondered if my sexuality would make it more difficult on their end to feel affirmed.

    I know it’s difficult/impossible to address everything at once, so although I would have been really excited to read a few ‘graphs addressing this particular kind of trans man / queer woman relationship, I understand not including such a thing.

    However, I feel that not even mentioning the reality that some queer women are attracted to both cis and trans men – and if you would approach dating those women differently than straight women and/or queer women who aren’t attracted to non-trans men but are attracted to some trans men – was problematic, especially given the commonality of bisexual erasure in both queer and mainstream contexts/media.

    Sincerely,
    April Q.

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  9. Caroline

    Loved the blog! You have given me much to think about.

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  10. queer girl

    I’m a queer woman currently dating a trans guy. I identify as queer and for me it means I am mostly attracted to the person not the gender. I am attracted to cis men, women and trans people. It hurts when people make assumptions about your sexuality and identity and who you are or aren’t attracted to. I felt at some points in this article that started to happen a little.

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  11. citizenofpawnee

    One of the things that has always bothered the shit out of me when it comes to queer communities, lesbian ones in particular is how trans men get treated compared to trans women. There are a lot of lesbians who would go crazy over a trans man but wouldn’t look twice at a trans woman. I see this shit everywhere too.

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  12. queermo

    I have a lot of feelings about this post, and I’m not quite sure where to start. I don’t want to make assumptions about your identity, life, or identifiers, but I do want to respond.

    I think you’re really brave to live your life with honesty and integrity, and to write about every intimacy with your life for broadcast on the internet. Most people aren’t fucking brave enough to be honest with family, friends, partners, and here you are doing it with the whole world.

    I think some of your anxiety about dating cis lesbians/queer cis women might be misplaced. Sure, there are definitely transphobic cis women out there, but I think by and large queer cis women really appreciate and value queer masculinity/female-bodied masculinity. I’m not sure if you personally identify as queer, or what your feelings are about the phrase female-bodied masculinity as it’s applied to you. I feel language is really limiting here, and I want I’m trying to communicate is that the cis lesbian/queer cis women community has a history of celebrating and valuing “non-normative” gender, and that there’s plenty of love and affirmation to be had.

    I recently started dating a genderqueer fellow, and he asked me what the gender/identity break-down was of my dating history. I clumsily explained that I primarily date female-bodied folks, but that identity-wise it’s 50/50 male-identified and female-identified.

    Your post makes me think of a trans man I dated a few summers back. He applied the label trans to his body, but not his identity, if that makes sense. I stopped dating him because he didn’t respect me in a lot of ways (fucking other folks and not telling me about them being one of them), but part of it was was that he acted as if his male identity required the erasure of my queer identity. I didn’t care if people on the streets read us as a hetero cis couple, but it bothered me that he didn’t see me as queer. He had a history of dating straight women, because he liked how they saw him as a man. I did too. It was painful/insulting that he assumed I didn’t see him, or was attracted to him *as a man* just because I was queer. I think he made the assumption that straight cis women saw him as a man first, then trans second (after him coming out to them), and that queer cis women saw him as trans first, man second.

    Anyway! I think the point of identifying as queer means you fucking love everybody as they are. Which means, queer cis ladies (for the most part) will love you as a man, because you are one.

    Long comment is long. Love you, love Autostraddle, kittens, happiness, rainbows….

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    1. Lee

      Thanks for this comment. I’m a guy who transitioned a few years ago (I don’t consider myself female bodied as I have had top, bottom surgery and hormones). I am currently dating a very queer cis woman. I am very supportive of her identity and her being queer doesn’t invalidate my maleness. However I think a lot of this has to do with me feeling “complete” in terms of my physical transition. Had it been before, earlier on in my transition, maybe even before my bottom surgery, I worry that I may have felt different. I am very secure and I think that has something to do with how comfortable I feel now dating someone who is very queer

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    2. annika

      I think that the term “female-bodied” is problematic. Take me for example- as a trans girl, I am and have always been female. Before starting hormones, before coming out, I was still female. Thus, by definition my body has always been a female’s body. There are no metrics or requirements by which to judge whether one’s body is “male enough” or “female enough”, and if you try to go down this route you’re going to end up causing all sorts of dysphoria and invalidating trans* identities.

      Instead, it’s better to use FAAB (female assigned at birth) or MAAB (male assigned at birth). Some even take it a step further and use CAFAB and CAMAB (coercively assigned…) to emphasize how they had no choice in the matter.

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      1. annika

        Although I should note that some FAAB genderqueer people use the term “female-bodied” to describe themselves, and I see no problem with this- I mean, who am I to tell someone how to label themselves?

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      2. queermo

        Thanks Annika! I’m definitely going to start using FAAB and MAAB when discussing sex and gender. I hadn’t heard those before.

        I was trying to be selective in my comment of how I used the phrase “female-bodied,” because it’s imperfect and not fully inclusive. I wasn’t trying to apply/project that phrase onto Sebastian, and I didn’t use it to describe my ex (because he’s a man). I’m sorry if I wasn’t more clear in my writing.

        I try to limit my use of the phrase “female-bodied”/”female-bodied masculinity” to masculine female-identified folks. Maybe I should just say masculine female-identified folks?

        I think I communicated what I was trying to say better in the second half of my comment than the first. What it comes down to for me, that just because a cis woman has a history of dating cis women, doesn’t mean that she can’t be attracted to a trans man as a man.

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      3. queermo

        Oh and PS – in an effort to humanize myself beyond someone who says problematic things about gender on the internet, I’m your friend Samantha’s roommate here in Oakland. It’s a small world!

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        1. annika

          We should all grab dinner sometime then! Burma Superstar?

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          1. queermo

            Yes please! :)

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    3. JEB

      Sometimes, the lens with which we see through does not include a filter for “male” or “female.” Sometimes there are people in our lives that we come across that only have “love” and “sweetness” filters on their perspective. I think you’re most likely one of them.

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  13. annika

    Great article as usual Sebastian! [Wow- this sure has evolved since the first draft you sent me ;) ]

    I have to agree with uragaaru though that I can’t relate to the following statement:

    “And how about the fact that I know what women’s sexual bodies feel like to them? I’ve got a better sense than non-trans men of how women are feeling in bed.”

    Personally, I have absolutely no idea how men are feeling in bed. None whatsoever, even though I slept with women when I still presented as male. The only way that I have ever been able to feel arousal is by viewing myself as 100% female in sexual encounters (before coming out, this required a lot of mental work to block out obvious dysphoric triggers). If anything, as a trans girl I feel like I always had some sort of insight into female sexuality (that straight cis guys didn’t) that allowed me to be a better intimate partner to women.

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    1. ryan

      echoing what annika is saying here. as a trans guy I have no idea how women feel in bed, even though I slept with women before transition I have always been male in my mind and my sexual encounters with women were as a man

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    2. Travis

      Really, I think it’s best to assume that none of us knows what anyone else feels like except us. I certainly have no idea how anyone else experiences sex. How can I when I don’t inhabit their body?

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  14. whatkentsaid

    Ahhhh I was kinda sorta on Autostraddle by proxy because that quote came from my tumblr! Haha.

    I really appreciate this post; I don’t if you saw the harsh response that my blog post on lesbians and trans*men got on tumblr, but it feels good to see something that aligns with what I wrote on a place like Autostraddle and written by someone who is trans* and writes about trans* things and gender things frequently.

    However, as other commenters have said, I am a little confused by your use of the word “queer” rather than “lesbian.” It seems to me that saying you might have trouble dating a queer woman who is usually attracted to women is kind of the same as saying you might have trouble dating a bisexual woman who was usually attracted to women – both identities imply that they date men as well as women, they just fall a little more toward the same-sex attraction end of the Kinsey scale. So I can obviously see why an article like this would need to be written about trans*men and lesbians, but with queer, bi, or pan women I would assume that they would date men as well anyways, and not just trans* men.

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    1. still confused

      from the article it seems like he still wouldn’t date someone who was strongly lesbian identified, but that he is open to dating queer women who have a preference for women. I could be wrong but because he didn’t really use the term lesbian I implied that he would not be open to dating a lesbian

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      1. riese

        the title usage of “queer women” was a choice the editors made, not sebastian himself. we should clarify that. (editors, not writers, always do the headlines though — that’s policy pretty much at every newspaper, magazine, etc)

        the piece is about queer women he feels comfortable dating and queer women he does not feel comfortable dating. i’m only attracted to women, but i identify as queer because i had a very bisexual past and queer feels more honest than ‘lesbian.’ lots of women who identify as queer are only attracted to women, it’s wrong to assume that “with queer, bi, or pan women I would assume that they would date men as well anyways, and not just trans* men.” most women i know who identify as queer do only date women, the word is lovely and fluid like that. in online journalism “queer” is often just used as an umbrella term to embody Ls, Gs and Bs, which some ppl have feelings about. (anyhow i think the context/sentences/paragraphs surrounding these individual words we’re focusing on makes sebastian’s point pretty clear)

        although many people define the word “lesbian” differently and i think younger generations particularly see sexuality in a more fluid way — saying “lesbians date trans men” in a title is intensely problematic and to some people (trans men and lesbians both) insulting. to many people in the community, lesbian means “attracted to women only at this time” and therefore a lesbian wanting to date a trans man (the pre-qualifier to the trans man deciding if he wanted to date a lesbian) would betray the word’s definition. does that make sense? i don’t know the word for what that would be, oxymoron is the closest thing i can come up with.

        essentially, we wanted to avoid having a big fight about the definition of the word “lesbian” for the 568th time on a post that’s supposed to be about trans guys dating. since this is a lesbian-dominated readership, we wanted to anticipate that problem and avoid it pre-emptively by not introducing that idea at all. (a problem that we did discuss with sebastian during edits, sidenote)

        had we used “lesbian” in the title, many people would’ve skipped the article and just gotten upset about how by definition, lesbians wouldn’t date cis or trans men and so why did we use the word “lesbian.”

        does that make sense? or are there specific areas where this seems problematic? i’m open to feedback. :-)

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        1. magiclovemuffin

          Hah, thank you Riese for knowing in advance that probably would’ve offended some of us (OK, me!) and dealing accordingly.

          I’m not sure a true lesbian would date a FtM trans guy, but I think this article is about what Sebastian is comfortable with as a FtM trans guy for his relationships and his identity.

          Side note, as a self-identified progressive liberal, dating a Tea Party Republican would really mess with that view of myself. I gotta draw a line. :)

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          1. novastar

            This post is a response to people (like myself) who wrote to Sebastian about being a gay cis woman dealing with attraction to a trans* guy without invalidating his gender, as well as a reflection on what Sebastian actually feels with regards to his relationships and his identity.

            Not to speak for Sebastian. I just want to let you know, that this post came from a question that lots of actual, actually gay women sent Sebastian.

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          2. whatkentsaid

            What do you mean by “true lesbian”? I am someone who IDs as a lesbian (also as genderqueer) and have dated a trans guy.

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        2. whatkentsaid

          Thanks for responding. Re: the comparison of queer to bi and pan, I didn’t word this very well. I was referring to the fact that in the actual article, Sebastian often talks about “queer women who usually date women” which to me also implied “queer women who sometimes date men, cis or trans*.” Maybe I was wrong there? I guess it was just confusing to me because queer can mean so many things, and I wondered why Sebastian didn’t just use the word “lesbian” (but I do understand why you wouldn’t want to use it in the title).

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  15. jessa

    This article is fantastic- I’m a queer cis woman and I’m definitely going to show it to my FTM partner.
    Now, could you please please PLEASE write an article explaining how exactly we gay ladies can fuck our trans lovers “as men” in the way that you describe? My partner is just beginning to come out, so it’s unfamiliar territory to both of us.

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  16. QUESTION

    WHY DIDN’T YOU CALL OUT YOUR FRIEND?

    his statement seems pretty messed up IMO

    oh and I’ve dated plenty of straight women (I’m a trans guy)

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  17. Kels

    This was a great article, Sebastian. I had been curious as to when/if you’d write something on this issue. Although I feel we can never TRULY understand why people are attracted to who they are, your theory rings true to many trans men and queer woman alike. I’m a queer-identified cisgender female (fit into the pan/bisexual category but I really just prefer the label QUEER) and after some of the experiences I’ve had with straight cisgender men and bicurious cisgender woman I understand the whole thing about wanting someone who understands your struggle. I was recently degraded during a sexual experience with a male FRIEND for my sexuality (calling me a lesbo the whole time is hate speech, not dirty talk people), and I was rather disappointed when my current female casual sex partner and her boyfriend spouted out some transphobic comments over drinks the other night. Although I love all sorts of people, I understand why a queer woman would want a man who can empathize with her struggle as a sexual minority.

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  18. Cain

    Maybe this is a bit harsh, but I don’t feel like not wanting to date lesbians doesn’t require a defense. A non-trans man, whether gay or straight, never has to justify why he wouldn’t date a lesbian just the same as a non-trans woman doesn’t have to justify why she would never date a lesbian or gay man. It’s kind of a silly double standard. Maybe it’s narrow-minded and limited, but I know what I like in a person, and a woman who identifies as being attracted to women probably isn’t going to fit the bill just the same as I’m not going to fit hers.
    Sometimes I feel guilty for not being more queer and inclusive with who I’m attracted to, but it’s not really anything I have control over. I also don’t have any control over being trans and not really identifying as queer or trans. Even though I worry about these things, I don’t feel like they’re things that that warrant to justification or worries, if that makes sense.

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  19. Jessica

    Starting to read this article, I kind of felt it was directed at me, and I was afraid I’d been insensitive with my previous comment… I’m glad to see I wasn’t. And I very much like what resulted from your reflection on this subject.

    I realised what it was that I found attractive in trans men after reading “Quatrième génération” by French writer and sociologist Wendy Delorme. I’m not sure it’s available in English, but if you do read French I think it’s a very nice, insightful reading. :)

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  20. Jon

    “I’ve traversed the gender binary and all its boundaries and I can see how ridiculous and unnatural the rules of masculinity are. I see how dumb it is that men often stifle emotions or act certain ways just because society expects them to. Yeah, I am gonna talk about my feelings.”

    I almost teared up at how true this feels. I am potentially one of the most sensitive people on the planet.

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  21. Lily

    “I’m queer but not pansexual.”

    Yes. I see “queer” as this wonderful umbrella term for the whole community. Everyone for whom sexual preference and gender are concepts up for debate and not to be taken at face value. For instance, I often use the word “bisexual” when describing my particular ID, because it’s the term everyone seems to understand the best. But it is inadequate. Really, I don’t automatically disqualify anyone based on those things. But I have tendencies. For instance, I have never been physically attracted to a more femme woman. I have never been physically attracted to a black person. I usually despise facial and excessive body hair. I prefer potential partners to be taller than I am. Blahblahblah. But in the end, attraction is attraction. So I can try to predict likelihood, but that’s the best I can do, and it isn’t much. There are so many people out there to meet and try to know. To suppose the anecdotal evidence of my life is sufficient for me to make any kind of blanket statement on the matter is absurd.

    Sebastian, I really get what you’re saying about the insecurity you’ve been feeling. It makes sense that you might feel that way, and everyone has their prejudices. What’s wonderful about you and this article is that you’re so willing to examine them and deconstruct them.

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  22. difficiledame

    What a great post.

    I’ve felt some frustration regarding people labeling me as a woman who is primarily interested in women from the outside. I don’t identify as a woman, and I don’t identify as a lesbian. I use words like “femme” and “queer” and “genderqueer” for specific reasons, and that stuff still gets tacked onto me.

    I’ve been dumped because it was assumed, via my perceived preferences, that I couldn’t treat the dumping party in a manner fitting their gender. I remember feeling like it wasn’t my baggage at play. Respecting other people’s gender identities is huge for me because I want my own to be respected. I don’t really get it, and I get tired of going up against people who operate on complete misconceptions of who I am.

    Which is sad really, given the people who I’ve been interested in who have passed up for those reasons.

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  23. Braedyn

    my question is, what does it mean to be viewed as a man? fuck/be fucked like a man? what does it mean to you when someone “physically engages with me as a man”? If we’re looking to move outside of this binary system, why do we, as trans individuals, constantly feel the need to reaffirm it? why can’t we just have sex with each other as people, human beings?

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    1. trans guy

      in my experience, it means something different for every man.

      also, just FYI not all trans people want to move outside of the binary system. i have met many a trans folk who are super binary identified.

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      1. Cain

        Being binary identified doesn’t mean there isn’t room for more identities, though. You can still identify within the binary and accept that other people don’t and make room for them.

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        1. Braedyn

          well isn’t that what we are doing? how can you identify with the bianry system when it is not (by definition) what you are? the binary system, the category of man, woman, we as trans people are superceding it, i don’t see how identifying within it is going to help stop the oppressiveness of it or make us more free.

          this is how and why i view my identity as queer, and date other people who have this same philosophy.

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          1. trans guy

            that may be how you view your identity, but you are making blanket statements and that’s not cool. there are people who transitioned who are binary identified. people who don’t identify as trans, people who may have always seen themselves as male.

            “the category of man, woman, we as trans people are superceding it”

            I think that’s a problematic statement. you are essentially saying trans people can’t simply identify as a man or a woman.. and you are making a lot of assumptions with that statement in terms of other people’s identities

            “this is how and why i view my identity as queer, and date other people who have this same philosophy.”

            that’s great for you, but not every trans person shares your philosophy and not all identify as queer.

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          2. Cain

            I’m sorry. I phrased what I meant to say poorly. I feel like the identities of man and woman can still exist with room for more identities. In short, the two identities of the binary system can still exist with room for people who identify as both, neither, etc. Just as there is no one way to be trans, there is no way to be a man, woman, or queer. Identification shouldn’t be oppressive. It is when labels become prescriptive instead of descriptive that they become overwhelming and oppressive. If the identity man or woman fits someone (regardless of trans status), why should that be taken away? I’m sorry if I’ve misunderstood you at all.

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            1. trans guy

              agreed

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            2. Braedyn

              i think what i’m trying to understand here is how do we define what a man or a woman is without stepping on any toes? if we each individually decide those things, if you say this is what a woman is and i say no, this is what a woman is, well who is woman then?

              my question is, how can a trans person be binary identified, when the binary itself says that they are not a man or a woman? or am i misunderstanding this?

              i’m still figuring my identity out in all of this and these are the questions i am constantly asking myself. i’m not trying to come across as making blanket statements, making assumptions, trying to be problematic, i just have questions so instead of trying to make me feel stupid (trans guy), ask me them back.

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              1. Cain

                I think it’s kind of silly to define someone else’s experience as a man or a woman. I think gender is a pretty intrinsic thing, and it’s unfair to hold everyone to some sort of standard, because there are always, always exceptions. We can disagree about what or who a woman is all we want, but at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter, because if the individual in question feels like she is a woman (lol Shania Twain) and identifies as such, why wouldn’t she be? Why does it have to be up to society to answer a question so personal?

                I think the binary would like to say that nobody transcends the gender binary and that trans people are only men or women after they’ve had “The Surgery.” This isn’t always the case. These societal expectations don’t have a lot of impact on my identity as a man, and I’m not hindered by what is masculine/feminine, etc. I just know how I feel.

                I hope these weren’t overly generalized statements, and I hope I could be of some help to yo.

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    2. Tiger Gray

      Well ok personally, my relationship with the binary is as follows. (and I know you didn’t ask me this so you know, feel free to disregard if you’re just like, wtf stranger who asked you)

      Male and female as culturally constructed identities exist and I don’t think it’s bad to acknowledge that. They’re valid identities. Sometimes I wonder if it’s a little hurtful to say zomg there should be no gender roles, no identities based on sex and so on, because that’s really a part of some people’s way of being. I think the problem for me as a trans person is that the categories tend to be assumed as very, very narrow, there’s an assumption of validity assigned only to male and female (for the most part), and when people want to create a new way of being, or they want to join or leave a role, they’re often met with violence. We’re also sorted arbitrarily and that’s a no go. But understanding that male and female exist and they’re this big archetypes isn’t bad, to me, in and of itself.

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  24. pyrrhic

    I love this article, and I love the discussion it’s engendered. I feel like there’s been a significant elision/erasure in the debate though –

    SEBASTIAN IS A STONE COLD FOX

    ps make more mixtapes

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    1. Lily

      BRING BACK THE THUMBS UP BUTTON

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      1. Lily

        Duuuuude, ask and ye shall receive…

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  25. Vanessa

    date a bisexual. problem solved.

    but now more seriously, why so much confusion and complication over these matters? date someone that you like and that hopefully likes you. for what you are/identify with.

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  26. Tiger Gray

    “I do this because want to be out as transgender and still be seen as a man. I educate because affirmation is one of our few weapons against the pain.”

    I might love you a little bit right now.

    You’ve hit on so much I’ve been feeling over the past week, as a trans person, about trans things. I looked up at my girlfriend halfway through and said, “I can’t put my mouth on this post enough right now.”

    and she said, “don’t lick the screen, honey.”

    So pretty much that. Thank you again. I needed this so bad.

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  27. Jude

    Sebastion, i think you really need to check yourself on your transmisogyny in this article. Some folks wrote about it here
    http://fetlife.com/groups/19953/group_posts/1664959

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    1. ari

      thanks for pointing this out jude. i felt that there was some transmisogyny going on here as well

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    2. novastar

      You need a FetLife account to view it. Would you mind paraphrasing?

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    3. magiclovemuffin

      May I ask what transmisogyny is and how it is distinct from misogyny?

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  28. Emily

    I recently started seeing lovely FTM who has just started his transition. When I met him, I thought that he was a lesbian cisgendered female, however within a couple hours when I had him alone he informed me that he was in fact FTM and just starting his transition.
    This is all super weird and confusing because I identify as queer and have been in relationships exclusivly with cisgendered women for the past couple years and have been in two long term relationships with cisgendered males but I have no idea how to act or feel in this relationship.
    I am attracted to him as he is, physically, mentally and emotionally. He has just started T and I know that physical changes are just around the corner, as well as top surgery in the next year.
    Has anyone been in a similar situation, just starting to date someone as they are starting transition? I am attracted primarily to women but have been attracted to cisgendered males in the past.
    Okay, seriously, you can probably tell how confused I am by this post.
    Any words of wisdom?

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    1. whatkentsaid

      Hey, I’ve actually been in exactly your situation – I met this person the first day I moved in to Smith College, honestly thought they were the biggest butch dyke I’d ever seen haha, then learned probably later that day that he’s trans. We ended up together for 2 and a half years, fairly recently broke up. Send me an email if you want, kent.eliz[at]gmail[dot]com.

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  29. magiclovemuffin

    I find it odd that anyone, straight male buddy included, would presume that somehow lesbians would be more likely to date a FtM trans kid than a straight woman. I mean, lesbians are exclusively attracted to women and a trans man isn’t a woman.

    Personally, I think just being a lesbian limits my accessibility in dating. If I were a straight woman, I could easily meet potential boyfriends in just about any situation without making any effort to “put myself out there.” Guys have randomly liked me in all sorts of settings. Now gay girls on the other hand… it’s incredibly rare I just happen to meet or work with someone I know to be a lesbian, and even rarer that it’s a lesbian I feel any interest in. So I do feel if I were straight I would’ve dated far more than I have as a lesbian. I can sympathize with how it might feel as someone trans.

    The good news is, there’s someone out there for everyone. No matter what quirk you have, someone is into it. And in a way, you might be luckier if you feel forced to put a little effort into it. That bit of effort can mean a huge difference from just kind of hoping something happens, which has been my relationship approach all my life. (I have vowed to change this.) I do think trans people often hook up with bisexuals, pansexuals and people who generally don’t feel gender is very important to determining sexual or romantic interest. As a lesbian though, gender is extremely important to me and a man, trans man and trans woman are all completely out of the question. (I feel that way about more than just gender. Age, religion, etc.)

    I think of Adam and Fiona (Fadam, if you will) on Degrassi. I felt so bad for Adam, but so happy Fiona realized she was a lesbian. I give Adam credit for going for it and being upfront about who he is before thinks get physical. (Maybe it’s a whole other debate, but I think it’s a little shitty to reveal to someone you’re trans after you’ve already hooked up.)

    Anyway, good luck with the dating scene.

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    1. answer

      Transmisogyny is basically what you did right there by excluding trans women from the category of “woman.” A trans woman’s gender is woman. Period. If you only want to date someone with a vagina, that’s about body parts and not about gender. And many trans women have vaginas.

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      1. magiclovemuffin

        Well anytime I said “woman,” I meant “cis women” but I don’t really feel comfortable using that term because I don’t *exactly* know what it means, where it comes from, etc. It’s not a word I’ve ever encountered in my life outside of reading Autostraddle, quite frankly. So when I said “woman” in my post, assume I said “cis woman” and hopefully that will somehow offend you less. And when I said gender, just assume I said sex too. This is a semantic problem, maybe, because I probably did mean biological gender or sex, and not socially constructed gender.

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        1. Definition

          The word is pretty basic. What exactly is biological gender?
          If you automatically exclude trans women from the category of woman so much that you expect that people to assume you mean cis women when you say women, then you need to educate yourself to be less bigoted.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

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          1. magiclovemuffin

            Being called a bigot and being insulted for using language incorrectly makes me feel like I need to rush right out and impress people like you. Very welcoming. I’ll work extra hard on pleasing you with my linguistic precision. Why have a discussion when I can just be told what an idiot I am? Thanks.

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            1. bra

              Plus it is not cute. I mean to be an educator about trans* issues or any minority issues one must not be patronizing but patient. As a person I can handle the flak I get for using the wrong words but I got to this point because I did a lot of reading on my own and I just listened, I learn morebthat way instead of spamming forums with clumsy worded questions. Still, if one wants to correct someone on something after you read the content of the response do so but gentely. I knew a lot potential allies turned away because of the tone in these discussons and I had to give a really watered down version of what was said and that shit gets annoying!

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            2. semantics

              It’s not about precision as much as invalidating people’s identities or erasing diversity. You can’t say “when I said ‘woman’ in my post, assume I said ‘cis woman’” any more than someone can say “When I said ‘woman,’ assume I meant ‘straight/white/American/abled/upper-middle class woman.’” Doing that would be privileged and wrong but probably an oversight. Instead, you explicitly excluded trans women from the category of woman and made clear that you don’t see them as actual women. You specifically invalidated trans women’s identities. Instead of acknowledging that you said something deeply hurtful and offensive, you’re blaming other people for being too sensitive. That’s not how to be supportive.

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              1. magiclovemuffin

                Maybe. There is clearly a divide in perspective. Maybe it is 100% me and there is something I don’t “get.” I’ve been pretty clear that I know very little about this and am trying to learn. I used to flat out skip posts by Sebastian or Annika about trans stuff, but my friend has opened my eyes to transphobia and I am trying to learn more. It’s clear this isn’t the place to learn more. I’ve already been turned off by how I’ve been treated. It’s not my intention to hurt anyone, but I’m being treated like I’m some sort of horribly hateful asshole. Fuck that. I was trying to say something supportive — that it isn’t about being trans or not trans, dating is just tough — but I regret saying anything at all. Goodbye.

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              2. Paper0Flowers

                Magic, if you feel like you’re being attacked here, then I would recommend reading Sebastian’s blog on your own – he covers a lot of extensive details about all facets of his trans* experience, and this way, you can learn at your own pace.

                For the record, I don’t think anyone has been hostile towards you here, but it has been a very volatile past few weeks, so I understand that you’re probably reading things differently than we intend. Good luck.

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            3. Paper0Flowers

              “its a secret” managed to sum up the same expression as you without being offensive towards gender-identities. Just sayin’.

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              1. Laneia

                hi! i don’t mean to sound like anyone’s mother here, but um, can we try to keep shit real? can we have a conversation w/out sarcasm and derisive language? save that for the trolls — you guys are all regulars! you’re all part of this really great place that I HELPED MAKE and i’m really really exhausted with the level of snidery coming from this particular string of comment posts above. make your points and make them kindly — or at least civilly?

                wrong + wrong ≠ right

                fuckin’ please?

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              2. Paper0Flowers

                There was no sarcasm or derisiveness. She was confused how her comment came across as offensive, and I was referring her to someone else who said the same thing but without being offensive.

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    2. R

      I think it’s really shitty of you as a cis person to say that trans people should have to disclose their trans status before hooking up. Why is it that you feel that way? I think its pretty cissexist of you. I transitioned a while ago but dont really identify as trans any longer (I do identify as queer). I’ve had bottom surgery. Being trans just isn’t a part of my life any more and I would rather be solely seen as my true gender (sometimes coming out as trans prevents people from seeing you as truly male or female). Anyway there is no reason why I should have to come out to someone about my past medical history (that’s how I personally view it) if it’s a casual hook up – it’s just not relevant. If I’m planning a relationship then I would tell them but that’s a different story

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      1. novastar

        I def don’t think that trans people should *have* to disclose, but I think most of the trans people I know would definitely disclose at some point before having sex, because one’s trans status can be kinda important in the “getting to know you” process. (In terms of their history.) However, I believe the idea that trans people who sleep with unsuspecting cis people is a primarily transmisogynistic stereotype.

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      2. magiclovemuffin

        Well, maybe it’s not politically correct to you, but personally, it’s relevant to me and a preference of mine — I would like to know. I also wouldn’t appreciate if someone, I don’t know, was already in another open relationship without telling me. To some people trans status won’t matter, just like to other people open relationships are fine. But some people feel otherwise. If you know or sense that it would matter to the person you are with, I really think you need to tell them or find someone else to hook up with.

        Anyway, that really wasn’t the point of my post. I can’t win, even if I try to be supportive. I guess a certain level of ignorance (literally a lack of exposure and understanding) is simply not allowed, even with good intentions. I give up.

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        1. R

          you are getting very upset and defensive here and I don’t understand why. We are having a dialogue. I pointed out how something you said was cissexist and you fail to acknowledge that. As a white person, if I said something that was problematic in terms of race and someone called me out, I wouldn’t say “fuck that” and refuse to acknowledge how what I said was problematic. Rather I would try to educate myself, see the problem in what I said and learn from it/apologize. Of course lack of exposure and understanding are allowed! I don’t expect everyone to be an expert on trans stuff.. All I did was point out how something you said was problematic and why. sorry I shouldn’t have used the word shitty, but that was a gut reaction because I was upset. I don’t like being told by a cis person that I have to do something, like disclose my trans status (which I view as personal medical information). There is this prevalent idea that comes from a place of transphobia/cissexism that trans people are trying to “trick” cis people when we hook up with them and that cis people have a “right” to know about someone’s trans status. I don’t think anyone would say that a cis guy who had testicular cancer and now has prosthetic testicles should have to tell every person he sleeps with. Nor would most people say that a cis woman who had surgery on her genitals should have to tell everyone she hooks up with. Yet it’s okay to say that someone who transitioned should have to tell a random person they are hooking up with who they may never see again “oh yeah so even though I don’t identify as transgender, I transitioned a few years ago and you have a right to know this because it really effects our sexual experience”.. Also want to point out that the idea that someone’s transition somehow effects the hook up is problematic – why does it? And I say this as someone who has randomly hooked up with people who have no idea I transitioned

          It’s really problematic to say that people who have transitioned should have to disclose before sexual encounters. also, comparing hooking up with someone who is in a relationship you don’t know about, to hooking up with someone who had transitioned is really not ok.

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          1. Paper0Flowers

            Omigod, I have a friend who has that same cissexist view of “trans people need to be upfront because they’re being deceptive otherwise / I’d never date a trans person because that’s gross”. I wish sorely that I could relax her judgements. It really breaks my heart that someone who’s helped me a lot with my own sexual identity can be so stubborn against educating herself. </3

            Anyways, sobs aside, I think you make very excellent points.

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    3. Ginasf

      @Magic: No one is telling you who to date, nor what should or shouldn’t be important to you about the people you date. But your very conscious grouping of trans women with men and trans men is highly offensive to me. And it’s not a “PC” complaint nor a “difference of opinions”… it’s about your statement of ignorance-based bigotry against trans women. I hope the women you date know your attitudes before you get involved because there are many women who would find what you’ve written a total turn off. :(

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      1. magiclovemuffin

        Hm, I apologize. My preference is cis woman who are lesbians. I hope this doesn’t offend anyone trans, male, straight, bisexual, pansexual, etc. The post really wasn’t about my preferences. My point was really that no matter our gender, sexual orientation or partner preferences, dating can be tough — there’s always going to be obstacles. But I do believe that there is someone interested in all of us. I’m not sure how what I said was offensive. If someone doesn’t want to date white people or something or says they aren’t into “whites, Blacks or Asians,” that grouping wouldn’t offend me. Sometimes a preference is just a preference, and a frank comment is just that. Shrug, I would urge you to look at the general sentiment I was trying to make — which I find completely non-controversial and supportive — and try not to burn me at the stake for using the incorrect terminology by accident.

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        1. shayna

          I think there is a difference between not being into a certain race versus only being into cis people because a lot of the time you can’t even tell if someone is cis or trans. example – there are plenty of women who transitioned who look like cis women in every single aspect down to genitals..

          Let’s say you met a woman who was perfect for you in every way and you were 100% attracted to her, then you ended up finding out at some point she transitioned (whether or not she actively identifies as trans) – if that would repulse you and make you say “I won’t date her” well I personally think that’s problematic

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  30. Nuala Shields

    I consider myself a Woman first and foremost. A Woman of Transsexual History. Or as I have sometimes heard it said “A woman/female from conception, born with a birth defect that left her (me) a tad genitally challenged.”

    I do consider gender, sexual orientation, and physical sex to exist along spectrums, rather than in dichotomies. I see people as being at different places (sometimes more than one or two places) along those spectrums. I don’t see people who identify with more than one gender or sexual orientation as being any less “hard-wired” as someone who can pinpoint exactly the one place where they know themselves to be.

    I do understand that everyone (including myself) has personal preferences as to whom they want to date/ be in a relationship with. I do have difficulty with the (un) reasoning that allows some folks to negate a trans-person’s innate and intrinsic knowledge of their gender, while simultaneously affirming all other aspects of sexual orientation, etc.

    I concur with a lot of what Sebastian was discussing in the article, particularly with the reasons someone wants to date him. I consider myself Pansexual. For me that means that I am attracted to others by a sexual *spark* between one-another, and that really has nothing to do with gender or genitals, physique or larger than life body parts.

    Where I have issues is with people who want to date me not because I am a woman, but because I am trans. Or because I have that (pre-op) “extra something”, or worst of all, they “can’t be Gay”, but if they engage in what they perceive as Gay sex while “looking at a woman” then they can convince themselves they aren’t Gay. Or the ones that say “Call me after you’ve had the surgery.”

    I really take issue with people who want to be with me, because to them I am some sort of “exotic pet”. While I would love to attend a lot of Transgender-related conferences, I also love going to mainstream restaurants and clubs. Some people have offered to take me only to TG venues, but don’t want to be out with me in public.

    I definitely agree on each of us having a unique experience of life, with unique insight, but as was pointed out, I can never know what it was like to “be a man” because I never was one. I had unique insight into their world as a woman whose female brain was being fueled by testosterone, and that is as close as I come to understanding.

    Anyway, I have rambled on long enough. Gratz! on a great and thought-provoking article.

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  31. its a secret

    this is a really interesting article and comment thread. i’m glad all of it is here and these discussions are happenning.

    i am commenting anonymously because i don’t know how to ask this question and not sound like a jerk. but anyway i have a question/complaint:

    is it okay to choose/date what/who your body likes? i am always annoyed then worried then confused when i read things on the internet (and i do often) along the lines of “you like this and this but not THIS? problematic.” not that people don’t usually need to check ourselves more that we do, but really? i do not want to problematize my orgasms. which, for me, is ultimately what i’m choosing when i choose a partner. i am choosing someone who makes me feel good, whose body makes my body feel good, who i just WANT and who wants me. for no good reason.

    also, i think all the problematizing makes me less honest sometimes. so, to be honest and rambly: i’m a cisgender, feminine-ish, slightly dykey-looking woman who only dates people with vaginas and breasts and non-medically-altered amounts of testosterone, although those words are all legitimately problematic, i’ll concede. when i was a young teenager i IDed as bisexual, and felt attracted to very masculine women and cis men (i hadn’t met any trans men), and this felt very real. later when i tried actually sleeping with (masculine preseting cis) men i was genuinely surprised to learn that i don’t really like penises, or lots of body hair or broad shoulders and narrow hips. this was confusing at the time because i am defintely very very attracted to masculinity and i wanted to feel fluid and open and pansexual and for bodies not to matter, for genitals not to matter.

    but ultimately, and to use more problematic words, i do like men and women, but only female men and female women. so i’m kind of a lesbian, but i’d date a trans or genderqueer masculine-IDed person who was okay with me liking thier body as a “female” (uggh, words) body. i would NEVER date a guy like sebastian whose (“physical”?) maleness i would not only not really be attracted to but also who i would be disrespecting by being with.

    but there are trans guys (as annika i think sort of mentions above somewhere) who feel their bodies ARE “male” without medical modification and i date people like that if they are okay with me and my personal dynamics or whatever. and if i date them i am dating a man. but i wouldn’t date a cis man. i date many variosly presenting (but mostly masculine-of-center) types of cis women. i haven’t met enough trans women to know if i’d be attracted to a trans woman who was transitioned and had had bottom surgery, i dk, probs. but i def wouldn’t date a trans woman who hadn’t had bottom surgery. i am choosing bodies. is that okay?

    basically, and to get a little angsty, some of the above comments make it seem like if i’d date some men (non-binary-ish trans-ish men with “vaginas and breasts” they are okay with me liking) and i’d date some women (women with “vaginas and breasts” they are okay with me liking) that means that to not be a horrible person i MUST date ALL men and ALL women. and i am just saying, fuck that. bodies matter. junk matters. i even have found that i expereince male or masculine-identified “female” people’s bodies and “female” woman-identified people’s bodies really differently somehow, the way i romanticize them is different, the way i look at them is different, they actually look different to me. but there is something (biological??!?) that tells me in my bones that it’s those bodies i want. so it gets specific, there is negotiation and communication required, but it fucking matters! this is so ridiculous and basic but i think it’s important. it took me forever to realize that i just like what i like and as long as the way i like it works for the other person too, then it’s okay. being queer we are disallowed our desires enough, i’m not gonna make myself feel guilty and so on on top of that.

    i guess i’m not asking a question anymore?

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    1. its a secret still

      ps, the way i refer to trans women above might be a little fucked up. i should have said that i haven’t met many women that i KNEW were trans, and i don’t KNOW if any of the many women i am attracted to out in the world all the time are trans, or not. though i’m still assuming that if i met a cute girl and we liked each other and then i found out she was trans and hadn’t had bottom surgery it would probably be a dealbreaker. also i was assuming above that since i usually am checking out/looking to date masculine-ish-presenting “female” people that just statistically i wouldn’t have randomly met tooo too many trans women in my area who fit that description. maybs that’s wrong?

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    2. Paper0Flowers

      lol Wordz. I know, right?

      I think you did a fairly decent job explaining yourself without being offensive/problematic (which I can imagine was super hard and stressful). Gender isn’t as important to you as the genitalia, am I getting that right? I think as long as you affirm the person’s gender, then you’re not doing anything that could harm someone’s identity.

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      1. secret

        wordzzzz oh god. yeah. never have i used so many safety quotes in one comment.

        and well ACTUALLY it’s funny because yes genitals matter to me but actually gender matters to me too. like, i love masculinity, it just usually is like, queer masculinity. and “masculine” is a pretty broad term anyway, but i mean, i’m pretty much never attracted to femme-y people. i don’t know! again, i choose to like what i like and then analyze it. and analyze it and analyze it. out loud on the internet!

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        1. Paper0Flowers

          Hahaha, word. In a world of black-and-white, I think you cover about 14 different shades of grey =P

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    3. Ginasf

      @Its a Secret: Personally, as a trans woman, I don’t have any issue with someone/anyone saying, “I’m not into dicks” or “pussies don’t turn me on” (whatever bodies those genitals belong to). If your orgasms and sexual pleasure have certain requirements, then best of luck on finding what you need and go for it. What bothers me is when, in stating what they want, they also make statements which are putdowns of other people’s bodies, lives and identities to somehow justify and bolster their sexual decisions. Not good—not cool.

      I do have an issue with you saying “non-medically altered amounts of testosterone.” That smells a little of trying to skirt some judgments you have about trans people (and I’m not totally clear what they are or even who you’re talking about) without sounding dismissive and a jerk. But sorry… it does come off that way. I have a problem when people make sweeping, not personally experienced judgments about surgically altered genitals (I’m talking about various forms of SRS here) and make broad judgments about what they ‘really’ are and aren’t (and I’m not saying that’s what you did). What I’m trying to suggest is, we all get to say what we prefer, but we have no right putting down others in that process.

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      1. secret

        @ginasf – oh! you are so right. maybe i should have just said physically or medically transitioned/ing trans men or something like that. although, i didn’t mean that i wouldn’t want to date those people BECAUSE their bodies were “modified” or however i should say that, but actually just because then they would then probably or more likely have physical bodies i am typically not attracted to, just as cis men do not. by “non-modified amounts of testosterone” i meant the amounts that female-assigned people have (which apparently varies alot anyway) without injecting it or doing other things to way increase their T levels. i didn’t mean that i prefer things “all-natural” or something. everybody modifies their bodies right? that is not just a trans thing.

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    4. Julia

      I think there are some problematic bits in what you’re saying, but there’s a lot of clear goodwill too, and that counts for something; especially if you are trying to engage with a difficult topic.

      Like Ginasf mentioned, I don’t really have a problem with the idea that someone wouldn’t feel attracted to me because of a body feature: that just seems part and parcel of life. It’s the idea that someone might reject us because of our medical history, rather than for who we are, that is troubling.

      I’m trans and pansexual, but there are still things about people that I find more physically attractive than others. I don’t believe there are any “deal breakers” for me, if I really like someone, but I’d be foolish to believe physical attraction did not play a role in how I choose partners. The reasons are complex, it’s not all innate, they are certainly not universal, they do not necessarily conform to common opinion and they are not as important for some people as others, they can change, but they are still there.

      I can deal with people not finding me physically attractive and I don’t happen to care what combination of genital characteristics a partner has, nor do I think a trans person needs to alter their body to conform to their gender identity, but that doesn’t mean I did not want to alter my own. Bodies matter, whatever your perspective on them.

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  32. luc

    This was an awesome post. A lot of what you said made me think deeply about my own relationship with my partner, who is a queer girl, identifies as a lesbian, and is -the- person that makes me feel so good about my identity and is such a supportive and affirming individual. So I’ve had great experiences with queer girls so far. :D

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  33. Paper0Flowers

    I have a random question that may or may not be entirely related here, and I’m going to proceed with caution…

    Someone mentioned here that gay cismen are not as supportive with their partners who are MAAB, yet we’ve seen many examples of straight ciswomen being supportive of their FAAB partners during their transition. (Annika, if I may use you as an example.) So, my question is – why is this? Are gay men just less tolerant/accepting/supportive of being in a relationship with woman? Is this a case of women just being more naturally-inclined to sexual fluidity, as some researchers have reported? Is this a totally false generalized statement (probz) that I just haven’t seen any examples of?

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    1. Paper0Flowers

      >_< Fuck. I got that wrong. **straight ciswomen and their MAAB partners.

      (And I was doing so well…lol)

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      1. bra

        <3

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    2. Ginasf

      @Paper: I’m a little muddled… do you mean gay men and their MAAB partners who eventually transition ‘MTF’ or are you referring to straight men who were in a ‘hetero’ relationship with someone who was FAAB and ultimately transitioned ‘FTM’?

      If it’s the former, you might have been referring to my post? It’s based on knowing a fair number (6-8??) persons who were in relationships at one time as gay men but later transitioned to womanhood. None of those relationships lasted much past disclosure… whether SRS was in the ultimate plans or not. Why? Don’t know and I don’t want to assume every situation was the same, but I can say I’ve discussed this issue with other (straight ID’d) trans women and have yet to hear of even one such relationship which survived. Perhaps (I’m guessing) it might have to do with how perceived femininity is not valued in queer men’s circles whereas perceived masculinity often is in queer women’s circles?

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      1. Paper0Flowers

        Yes, I think it was your post. I mean the former point with gay men and MTFs (I just didn’t want to use that term).

        That could be true. It just seems really unfortunate that a gayman would immediately shut down a relationship the minute his partner is a “woman”, but for women, we’re more..flexible? Understanding? Willing to put up with the difficulties? I don’t know. I didn’t want to make a blanket statement, but I thought it very interesting that you brought it up and it made me think.

        Although now that I think about it, L Word had Max and Tom hook up which I just thought was dumb (but L Word is NOT a good reference for proper trans* portrayals).

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      2. Jessica

        Of the few examples I have, I can tell you that I do know at least one “gay” couple who didn’t breakup after the MAAB woman told her partner she was going to transition.
        She’s talked quite a lot about her transition because at the time she was a very prominent, very active member of the gay rights movement, and there was a lot of rejection from her friends when she started transitioning (she transitioned later in her life, when she was already in her 40′s). Her relationship, though, lasted long after she transitioned and they broke up for reasons that were completely unrelated, as it happens to a lot of couples.
        That is to say that gay men can also be supportive of their MAAB partner transitioning. It’s just a matter of persons, like everything else… But I guess statistics may tend to show that more often than not they’re being less supportive than straight women, or gay women in relationships with FAAB men who are transitioning.

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        1. Ginasf

          If this is a fairly high profile trans person I’d love to know who they are and about their history. I’m not saying there are none, what I’m saying is that, for trans women who’ve lived as part of a ‘gay male’ couple at some point in their lives, transition tends to be a death knell for that relationship whereas there are a sizable number of trans guys whose relationships with queer women survive transition. It’s a very different situation. In communities of color, I’ve known a number of couples consisting of pre/non-op trans women with cis male partners who had a history of gay relationships. Never seen that combo among white people.

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        2. Paper0Flowers

          Alright, thanks for your story, Jessica =) I am curious now about the discrepancy, but that’s another matter that isn’t important to resolve.

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  34. Kenzie

    In all honesty, I don’t know a great deal about all of the politically correct/preferred/commonly used terminology etc. so I apologize in advance if anything comes across oddly, it is all well intentioned…

    Sebastian, firstly, I truly respect the articles you’ve written, and the thought put into them.

    This particular essay struck me because it connects to some feelings I had, personally, when I went off to college. I had several friends who identified as lesbian/gay/bisexual/pansexual before going off to Smith, but had never gotten to know anyone who was trans. I was worried because I didn’t know what to expect (I like to be prepared… really prepared…). I believe that it takes a great deal of strength to live you’re own truth, and I wanted to make it clear that I respected that. Also, in the event that I did fall for someone who was trans, how would I assure them that I liked them for who they are, not what the used to be, or due to some skewed stereotype. As it would turn out, there was nothing to worry about! Anyway, this long, comment was essentially to say that it was really interesting to see another perspective on a similar situation.

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  35. Haley

    Srsly, this conversation is still going on? The “I am a lesbian who would only date cis women and trans men, and lalala I didn’t hear what you said about transphobia or mysogyny” one? Whoah, I thought I had entered a time machine (or possibly a phone booth) to 15 years ago.

    The rationalization that one, as a lesbian, is down with trans men but not trans women because of their cultural upbringing as women (excuse me, womYn) is staggering in 2011. You realize that many trans people are transitioning before puberty? (Hello Copenhagen protocol.) That means no experience with pms, no adolescence as a women, etc etc. And many many people transtion before their early 20s (advisable medically) meaning no meaningful experience of career discrimination, etc. And absolutely regardless of when people transition, most people do not have any sort of gender priviledge because they are bullied, beat up, and/or ostracised due to their gender presentation. You think you’d have such great, sharable experiences as someone of the opposite gender if you grew up as a trans kid or person prior to transition. Check your priviledge people.

    Don’t even get me started on the “trans people should disclose their status before getting into bed” crap. Really, people? Did you ever realize that that might not be SAFE? Your priviledge does not include insisting people compromise their safety and well being.

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    1. Haley

      ETA: Ha, I meant the dutch protocol. Global warming, transitioning, what difference?

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    2. Rebecca

      This.

      Seeing a defence of the whole “it’s okay to view trans people as being kind of their assigned sex if it gets trans men laid” attitude (and the flow-on consequences for how trans women get seen in the lesbian community), on Autostraddle of all places, is incredibly depressing.

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  36. Nuala

    To those who are commenting from a perspective of being non-trans and wanting to learn more, the best way to find out if a term is ok to use, is to ask. many of the terms in use in the community right now are in flux and even debated from within.

    I like the CAMAB/CAFAB term because it does reference the fact that someone present at the birth looked at the genitals and took an educated guess as to the sex of the child. I hear people still using the term “gender” in place of sex… as in “We are going to find out the baby’s gender today.” I always want to say “Umm… so you’re going to ask your kid in utero to tell you what their gender is?”

    I feel we need to separate gender roles and gender expectations from actual gender… the role we see for ourselves as how we perceive our gender to be and how we project that, and the expectations our society has for us based on our gender as perceived by the society are socially constructed. Our own innate, intrinsic knowledge of who we are gender-wise (whether static or fluid) isn’t.

    Another issue is when someone refers to our genitals and says “biological” or “anatomical” in reference to our gender and sex, but consider that the brain is there first and that there are physical differences between the brains of women (trans or cis) and men (trans or cis) So if your brain is physically female and your genitals are physically male, your brain is anatomy and biology more so than your genitals. Also, more people (hopefully) will meet your brain than will meet your genitals…

    I do enjoy the discussions here because they are for the most part courteous and open-minded. Not many forums outside of trans specific ones where we can get a fair shake.

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  37. Nuala

    On the disclosure, I don’t see a need to disclose one’s transition. I do feel that if you are young enough to enter into a relationship where your partner would want to have children with you, then you should disclose that you can’t have children, the same as any cis-person who was infertile would, but not your being of transsexual history.

    Someone in a video recently, brought up a good point… it is reasonable to assume that some women are trans, and that they might not be able to tell by looking at them whether they are or not. If the person has an issue with sleeping with a transwoman, then it is the obligation of the person with the issue to ask their prospective partner if she is trans, not on the transwoman to disclose prior to being asked.

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  38. carrie

    I don’t have anything productive to add but … where is that adorable embroidery image from (the one that’s used with this article on the main page)? SO CUTE.

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  39. Honest question...

    So I am what you would call a triple minority. I am African American, a cis woman and in the lgbt umbrella. And anyone who is more than one minority knows that sometimes your viewpoints have conflicts. For example when some A.A. claim being lgbt isn’t as hard as being black and vise versa. Our I remember when the black vs female thing (obama vs hillary) You get torn a lot because people automatically feel that you should identify with a certain minority. So I am constantly double checking myself. Now I know a MtF person(post-op) who I recently was having a convo with, during the convo she stated that she was “just as woman or more than the next female.” Now my other friend was with me (cis woman) and replied that this made her feel like she was nothing more than a vagina and breasts. And diminsished everything that she went through. I have been pondering over this… is she wrong to think that or is my MtF friend wrong to just generalize women. I’m torn because the feminist side of me is like “we are so much more and have so much more to offer etc etc etc” but than my lgbt side is all like the FtM is a woman. I would tell you how the convo ended but it was so long.

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    1. response

      hey, I want to respond but I’m a little confused – was the trans woman you spoke to saying she is now just as woman as the next because she had gotten bottom surgery? or was she saying that in general, she is just as much a woman as anyone else? If she was saying that in response to having bottom surgery, it seems she has fallen victim to something that has been placed on trans people – that we are only truly embodying ourselves as men or women after we have had surgery. I can’t even tell you how many times people have asked me if I’ve had “the surgery” yet. To me, that is their way of asking “well are you a REAL man yet” because so many people qualify genitalia with sex and gender. I don’t think ANY trans woman thinks women are simply vagina and breasts – this sort of thinking is basically the opposite of being trans because us trans folk are aware of our genders despite what we are told (based on how people see our bodies) – often long before taking any steps towards medical transition. It seems to me she was just trying to validate herself in a way she has probably been expected to do many times before by people who don’t see her as a real woman until she notes that she has had surgery

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      1. Thank you

        So I showed my cis friend your answer and I.think it helped. I just didn’t want to make matters worse when I am truly not a spokesperson for all lgbt which people don’t realize. I need to educate myself on matters as well.

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    2. ginasf

      And what does this “Honest Question” have to do with the thread? It sounds to me as if you’re using one conversation to question whether trans women are sexist and objectify women’s bodies. If that’s where you’re going with this, then I don’t think it’s an honest question at all but rather a statement of your own assumptions.

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  40. Ms.Rachel

    This just happened and I am sorry it is so long and blah blah – y. if anyone actually takes the time to read my rambling nonsense props to you, you win a battery-powered scooter, and please let me know.

    On statuses and labels in general in relationships: I feel that however someone chooses to label themselves (if they choose to at all) is for themselves. I am a queer identified girl, and I love people. I have predominantly had relationships males, however also with lesbians, bi-sexuals, queer girls, as well as one straight girl (aha!)
    When it comes to dating, I meet a person, ooh I like them/dont like them, oh you’re a girl/boy? okay whatevs I have blue eyes.

    On trans* statuses etc: I have problems with this cis-male, trans* female, mtf ftm whatever whatever nonsense. I understand being out as a trans* person however referring to someone as cis male or trans* male is sort of taking a step back for our trans brothers and sister – if someone identifies as a man, they are male. If someone identifies as a woman, they are female. If they identify male and are transitioning and are not going to have bottom surgery, they are still a male. Just as much as that guy walking by that has male genitalia. Genitals and birth assignment do not matter as far as I am concerned. I have never dated a trans* person however the only trans* person I know is a gay man so not much dating opportunity :)

    I’m not saying this is society’s outlook I am just saying this is my outlook. This may not even be where society needs to progress to, maybe some of my viewpoints are offensive to others it just how I feel.

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    1. Ginasf

      @ms. rachel:

      On trans* statuses etc:

      “I have problems with this cis-male, trans* female, mtf ftm whatever whatever nonsense. I understand being out as a trans* person however referring to someone as cis male or trans* male is sort of taking a step back for our trans brothers and sister – if someone identifies as a man, they are male. If someone identifies as a woman, they are female. If they identify male and are transitioning and are not going to have bottom surgery, they are still a male. Just as much as that guy walking by that has male genitalia. Genitals and birth assignment do not matter as far as I am concerned.”

      These are lovely words… but I’m skeptical. It’s a little too much like the white person’s statement about race “I don’t care if you’re blue, purple, black or white.” The fact is, since you haven’t been in relationships with trans people it’s kind of academic (although I really do hope you’ll find the opportunity to prove its truth in future). I’ve seen waaay too many cis people in the queer community talk panssexual but then make statements like “I prefer people who were born with vaginas.” Um, contradiction? These statements are proven by real life experience… and that experience (I would hope) is something more than “being hit on by someone who really had a penis.” (I’m quoting another fail post on this thread).

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      1. ginasf

        Oops, double post of two slightly differing responses. Sorry!

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  41. Alyssa

    The transmisogyny, cissexism, transphobia, and sexism in this post and the ensuing comments are depressing. On Autostraddle of all places…

    Everyone has a right to their preferences. But it is our responsibility to check ourselves for signs of oppression, and sometimes, our preferences are rooted in internalized -isms. If someone is only attracted to people who are thin, then they have a responsibility to check themselves for sizism. It is wrong to shrug our shoulders, say, “Well that’s just the way I am,” without first doing the work to see if that is true. That’s not to say that someone’s preferences would automatically change; it IS to say that we have a duty to understand ourselves and see where they’re coming from. To not do so is like the racist who says, “Well, that’s just how I was brought up.”

    Re: scaring off potential allies. Fuck that noise. If someone is stepping on my neck and they’re making tone arguments about how nicely I have to ask to have them kindly remove their foot, then they’re NOT POTENTIAL ALLIES. Not to get all Pol Pot, but seriously, there is no gain in keeping them in the movement. I am not a dog, and I don’t need your bone.

    Also, cis people: it’s not all about you, anymore than society is all about white people. You already get the world. Is it really too much to ask that you do your homework when engaging with us? The nature of oppression is that in order for marginalized people to survive, we need to fully understand the mainstream culture as well as our own. We didn’t get a fucking tour guide. So to be fair, you shouldn’t get a fucking tour guide either. Do the work, and maybe there will be some justice and parity.

    Also, can we talk about attraction to large classes of people without making broad stereotypes? I get it: secondary sex characteristics of testosterone-driven primary puberties turn you off. But not all MAAB non-cis people have those characteristics. To say so is biological gender essentialism.

    Re: junk. Are people going to seriously cast aspersions on surgically altered genitals without first-hand experience? Really? And how much cis junk have you actually seen? Even if you have been exposed to trans* junk, do you have a large enough sample size of both categories to come to any useful conclusions?

    Re: “there’s someone out there for everyone”: no there isn’t. Numbers matter. Going years without finding anyone interested in you crushes the soul. It’s incredibly dismissive to suggest otherwise. If there were plenty of people interested in non-cis MAAB people, it wouldn’t be an issue if some individual queer cis woman didn’t like us. Go on your merry way; no harm no foul. But when it’s virtually EVERY queer cis woman, it’s a problem. When I have to look 10x harder for a relationship, work 10x harder to maintain it, and go 10x longer alone in between; that’s a fundamentally different experience, and it IS OPPRESSIVE.

    It’s funny how the aggregate total of all your “non-oppressive preferences” adds up to a very oppressive experience for non-cis MAAB folks. Funny.

    I haven’t even gotten into the whole notion of PMS and experienced misogyny. (Really Sebastian, check yourself.) Not everyone has the same physical symptoms, and not everyone relates to PMS in the same emotional and social way. Having the physical experience as a trans man is fundamentally different than having it as a cis woman. Jeez. And I think it’s worse when a person that has experienced an axis of oppression turns around and performs it on others. Like Alan Keyes. Trans men are not immune from misogyny and sexism, and personal experience with it does not necessarily temper it.

    OK, I’m done for now.

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    1. activist19

      I was also uncomfortable with that PMS comment. There are plenty of cis women who don’t experience PMS (for many reasons, some medical), also trans men may not experience PMS (say if they have PCOS, or transitioned before puberty!) or what about intersex people who also identify as trans? I know some intersex guys who also identify as trans men who never got a period. I also felt it was transmisogynist in that it invisiblized (is that a word?) trans women and made it seem like sebastian is only interested in pursuing cis women

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    2. :)

      Damn Alyssa tell me whatchu rly think girl ;)

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    3. difficiledame

      “Everyone has a right to their preferences. But it is our responsibility to check ourselves for signs of oppression, and sometimes, our preferences are rooted in internalized -isms. If someone is only attracted to people who are thin, then they have a responsibility to check themselves for sizism. It is wrong to shrug our shoulders, say, “Well that’s just the way I am,” without first doing the work to see if that is true. That’s not to say that someone’s preferences would automatically change; it IS to say that we have a duty to understand ourselves and see where they’re coming from. To not do so is like the racist who says, ‘Well, that’s just how I was brought up.’”

      Amen. Amen. I couldn’t word that any better.

      I agree that it’s not my responsibility to make sure everyone understands how to treat me with respect. I also agree with you that it’s my job to educate myself regarding how others ought to be treated. However, I do think that sometimes interaction and asking arguably messed up/busted questions can be considered part of doing the homework. I think as long as a person isn’t putting me into some adversarial role and saying things for the sake of proving me wrong or discounting my identity and seems open to discussion I’m likely to feel a little more benevolent. I do think “allies” who come in thinking they know more about how things need to be done than I do can take a long, long walk.

      Then again, there are those days when someone is just being a jerk and I’m like “Screw you, it’s not my job to make you be a decent person.” or I’m just tired of having to answer questions every five seconds, and it’s totally legit to be angry and want nothing to do with it. Or not angry and just want to preserve some safe feeling ground for myself.

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      1. Alyssa

        I agree that asking difficult questions is part of the work that allies have to do. But there are right ways and wrong ways. It’s not magic; it’s basic civility and respect.

        I was referring to magiclovemuffin, who said something incredibly busted and insulting, was checked gently by Definition, freaked out “OMG YOU CALLED ME BIGOT!!!” and made a tone argument, was backed up by bra (don’t you get that us marginalized folk need to snivel to get allies?), was explained to by semantics that she needed to do some self-education, then got all huffy “I WAS JUST BEING NICE; I DESERVE A COOKIE.”

        Then in a parallel thread she said something else busted, refused to defend it directly and just said “WELL THAT’S NOT WHAT MY POST WAS ABOUT”, then left in a huff.

        That about covers it.

        We need allies like her like we need canker sores.

        Let’s break down why this is crap:
        1. Tone policing – marginalized folks don’t have to be nice when talking about being oppressed.
        2. Sniveling – needing allies does not mean losing our souls; it does more harm than good.
        3. Cookies – you don’t get a cookie for being a decent human being. We tear down men who say, “I DON’T THINK WOMEN SHOULD BE RAPED,” and expect a frickin’ medal. In the same way, cis allies need to treat us with a bare minimum of respect without an award.
        4. Backhanded compliments – Just because you intended it to be nice doesn’t mean it’s actually nice. “OMG that dress makes you less ugly!” is not a compliment. Neither is, “You look really good for a trans woman,” or “I have trans* friends as long as they’re nice to me and not uppity.”
        5. Demanding to control the terms of engagement – you can’t say, just forget about that really shitty thing I did to you because that’s not what this is really about.
        6. Screw you guys I’m going home – the hallmark of privilege is being able to leave behind an issue and pretend it doesn’t exist. Oppressed people can’t do that; it’s OUR LIVES.

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        1. difficiledame

          Right. Okay. I like your breakdown. Cases where one is made to go on the defense or is expected to thank someone for being busted because they believed they had good intentions shouldn’t be tolerated. That just reeks of “I obviously have no idea what it’s like to experience what you do, and I’m passingly interested in looking like I care.”

          I hadn’t considered the tone policing/sniveling thing very much, though I know exactly what you’re referencing. I know I tend to get it in my head that I have to be nicer/more apologetic than I really do, so sometimes I give those arguments more credence than they deserve. I think part of it comes from being worn down on conflict and wanting a minute where I don’t feel like I need to be up at bat. Absolutely though. I think you nailed it.

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          1. bra

            I too now realize how my post was all wrong in that I figured people who clumsy say dumb shit in minority issues she be met with nicey nice talk when really we are adults (More or less). I mean goddamn I get so tired at be being really annoyed so I probably let so much privilege shit slide-including my co-cosing “be nice or tthe allies will go away” sigh fail.

            I like this feeling though, it makes me grow, think and it makes me more empathetic, humility in being wrong. Anyway back to listening the most important thing an ally can do.

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    4. Haley

      What Alyssa said. So hard. Just saying this as a cis woman and ally.

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    5. citizenofpawnee

      IAWTC

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    6. Rebecca

      Thank you for this, Alyssa – all of what you just said is spot on.

      I’m just really disappointed – for a blog that I’d always thought to be great on trans stuff, both this past and the sheer amount of unmoderated and unchallenged cissexism and transmisogyny in the comments is utterly depressing.

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  42. Scorpiopixie

    I’m sick right now, so I apologize, I haven’t read everyone’s comments. I’m still throwing in my 2 cents regardless.

    Sebastian, your article makes me feel so much better. I am a lesbian, recently come out again at 31 (2 years ago) after years of struggling with my identity. Coming out has made me so comfortable with my life and so happy. Thing is, when I came out the first time years ago, trans issues were REALLY under the surface/not discussed, so I didn’t have to think about whether or not I’d date someone who was trans. However, that’s (thankfully) not the case anymore and I have had to think about it and question if I would or not.

    I have come to the conclusion that no, I am not interested in dating a transman. Why? Well, for the very exact reason that you mentioned as to why you wouldn’t want to date a lesbian/lesbian-identified woman – *because I am not attracted to men.* It really is that simple. I don’t want to date cis men and I don’t want to date transmen. I want tits in my hand, no matter how small. I want to nuzzle her neck and smell a woman. I am a lesbian, not a bisexual or heterosexual woman. I understand what you said about how you’d feel awful if a woman related to you as anything but male. It wouldn’t be fair to you. And I’ve explained to a friend that it would feel off and wrong to me too.

    The last woman I dated was very butch, to the point where she has (once) been asked if she preferred to go by he or she. But she is most assuredly a lesbian woman, not a transman. I love androgynous and butch women simply because I DO love that they straddle the masculine and feminine in a way that makes me weak. I am a femme, but I’ve been told I can be bold, aggressive, assertive, strong, etc. It’s simply my personality (I am also soft, vulnerable, at times quiet, etc). I seek out the compliment to my energy, and I don’t feel like a completely masculine energy is my compliment. Therefore, men are off my dating horizon and so too are transmen.

    Have faith that there are lesbian women out there who get it why you don’t want to date us, and who honor and respect that very much.

    Since I didn’t mention transwomen, and I know someone will ask, no, transwomen don’t really interest me generally. I like to say I wear the heels in the relationship, and many transwomen are as or more feminine than I am! Not interested. Besides, the one who hit on me had non-standard genitals (aka a penis) and while I understand that won’t always be there, I just couldn’t go there in my head. What can I say, I like pussy.

    PPS. This doesn’t mean I am not open and wouldn’t consider each person on an individual basis regardless of what I’ve written above.

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  43. Arsepolitico

    If I may, on behalf of queer women who know better:

    “Best of both worlds,” WTF?! If I wanted to date a woman with a D, I’d do that. crazy a-mumble$#@*#@ giving people a bad name mumble$#$&%$ where they at mumble #%@#%? imon get them and they momma *^&$%. Being trans is not a part-time gig.
    YOU ARE NOT A CROSS-DRESSER.

    Thank you.

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    1. Paper0Flowers

      *blink* Can we get a translator? Your censorship is super confusing @_@ Although the comprehensive parts make sense.

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  44. lilyv

    wow….all of these comments kind of made me uneasy about labels more so than before. i think it brought an end to categorizing for me, as no one truly fits one category (so what’s the point).
    this post was pretty damn beautiful and reminded me that what we like or fall in love with has very little to do with the outer shell that we present to the world. it’s that je nes sais pa about a person that makes you feel welcome, safe, at ease, and at home. that really matters above all. anyway, that’s what i took away from this post.

    thanks for writing this sebastian, it was very heartfelt and lovelier than lovely.

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    1. citizenofpawnee

      You can say this for pretty much any label though like race and gender and yet we still use labels for those. I mean, to what extent should we stop using labels?

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      1. lilyv

        i just meant that for me personally. everyone can do as they please, but for me race and gender don’t really tell me much about a person. in a way i feel like they come attached with a lot of implications that may not hold true, it’s not even really worth labeling that way to me.

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  45. TrinaB

    Great article! I’m glad you wrote it… and I’m really glad you had that revelation about dating queer women, for the sake of queer women like me<3.

    I myself am a lesbian-leaning queer lady who has a soft spot for transmen, though it too (i'm ashamed to say) took me a while to understand because for me, liking trans-men somewhat threatened that part of me that had struggled so hard for self-acceptance as a lesbian. So likewise, it was kind of an identity battle. I mean, I've dated cisgendered men in the past, but i could never emotionally connect with them, and sex was never good. So my first transguy experience was admittedly confusing at first, as i felt a little bewildered being genuinely and incredibly attracted to a man! It was kind of like coming out again. But Jessica's right, for me at least trans-guy' masculinity is def not in question, but rather the attraction is there i think because of chemistry, perspective, and character.

    i guess in the end, love and sexuality are so much more fluid than the identities and labels we cling to.

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  46. Nuala

    I’ve been following the discussions (I much prefer discussions to debates)with keen interest. One of the things that initially attracted me to Autostraddle was that Transgender folk (and particularly for me, Trans Women) were given a voice and were well-received and supported by those outside the community who really want to learn.

    I wanted to mention a few things that were on my mind today as I read these postings and other news from around the world on both LGBTIQQ and Trans-specific issues.

    One article I saw mentioned that not all children who exhibit non-traditional gender preferences come to identify as trans. Some later come out as Gay or Lesbian, others identify as Bi or Straight. Some people lately have been confusing that and saying that a large percentage of children who identify initially as trans later come out as Gay or Lesbian and that isn’t the original observation.

    Also, I still occasionally see the suggestion made that people decide to come out as trans because it is too difficult for them to come out as Gay or Lesbian. That is akin to saying it is too difficult to swim the English Channel, so I’ll just swim across the Atlantic instead.

    As for the use of “Cis” and “Trans”… when I am talking with other women (Cis or Trans) I say “Woman/Women”. If I am in a discussion where the content is dependent on knowing which woman I am speaking about, then I will use Cis or Trans as a clarification. (This of course applies to men who are Cis or Trans as well).

    On another note, there are TransWomen who aren’t super feminine, just as there are Transmen who aren’t super masculine. Particularly as we get through transition and become comfortable in our true selves. There is a tendency to over-compensate early on, because we are trying to rid ourselves of the mask we were forced to wear to pass. In many ways the transition echoes puberty. There are advantages and disadvantages in experiencing it a second time. For one it is different from the first time, because then we were traumatized by our body’s betrayal of our being. Now we see the true self we’ve always known inside, blossoming forth on the outside. One of the downsides is that you get the teenage angst where you think everyone is looking at you and scrutinizing you. Once you become comfortable with yourself, you realize that most of the people around you aren’t giving you more than a cursory once-over.

    I’ve interacted with people I knew fairly well a few years back, thinking they knew because their cousin knows, only to have them message me a month later saying they thought I was my sister and only just found out from their cousin.

    I mentioned also in a previous post that I didn’t want to date someone who said “call me if you get the surgery”. I understand that some people have an issue with genitals, and that is their prerogative, where I had an issue with those prospective dates is that they had no interest in getting to know me at all as a friend even, unless my body was capable of providing them with sexual gratification. I’m not interested in a hookup, I’m interested in a relationship. To me that is like saying, “I don’t want to be around you until the work is done, but then I will be willing to satisfy my lust with you.” Or “Call me if your cancer goes into remission”. I guess what I am trying to say back to them is “Don’t flatter yourself”.

    If someone isn’t bigoted or prejudiced against Transpeople, then the reason not to date them isn’t because they are Trans or because you hear that most of them are this way or that, but because they don’t have some quality you need in your relationships that would also cause you to reject a relationship with a Cisgender/Cissexual person.

    Alright, that’s my ramble for now… Loving the discussion thread. :)

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    1. Scorpiopixie

      I know you’re not specifically responding to my post, but you touched on some things that I brought up in mine, so allow me to respond.

      I’ve only been hit on by three transwomen and in each of the three cases, they were still in, as you call it, the overcompensating phase. For one of them who sought me out online, I respected her honesty about herself, and we chatted for a bit, but it quickly became obvious that our interests and personalities were not compatible. I absolutely gave her that respect of considering her personality as well, even as I willingly admit that non-standard genitals are not for me. I say this as a woman who believed she was bisexual for quite awhile, and therefore has had many encounters with penises, but has realized they aren’t for her. Perhaps if I still considered myself bisexual, I’d be more open to her. I do not, and therefore, I was not.

      While I understand your issues with people saying “call me after the surgery” (and your comment about calling about after the cancer goes in remission is a really great analogy), the fact of the matter is that simply, there will be women who are not comfortable having a penis in their bed. It has less to do with you per se than them, but it is a very valid issue and concern. I would never reject a partner for having cancer, but part of a romantic partnership is not only getting to know and fall for the person you’re with, but also a sexual relationship with that person.

      Consider it this way – that person has self-eliminated. It’s a blow to the ego when you really like someone and they can’t accept you for who you are, but it helps you weed out people who aren’t tough enough or right for you. It’s a good thing.

      My issue with what you say is this: “where I had an issue with those prospective dates is that they had no interest in getting to know me at all as a friend even, unless my body was capable of providing them with sexual gratification”.

      While I understand what you’re saying about them wanting to see you as a possible friend, the fact that they are *prospective dates* adds in that the assumption is first for a possible romantic relationship. It’s pretty rare for people to go on dates and decide to become friends. It happens (it’s happened to me), but pretty much if you’re swimming in the dating pool, the expectation is for possible lust encounters, so someone who might think you’d be an awesome friend otherwise will less likely take the time to find that out if they met you on the possibility of romance. Make sense?

      I truly agree with you – trans is not something that happens overnight, so finding someone who can be with you and love you over that transition is incredibly important. Still, romance is hard no matter who you are or what you do or do not bring to the table – in assets, “baggage” or what have you. Hell, I just got dumped because I got fired, and she basically proved that she judged me for not having a job, whereas I have lots of other people who think I’m awesome with or without a job, and there will be people who think you are awesome with or without a penis, some for romantic purposes and others for friendship. Keep trudging through and know it’s not just you.

      Best of luck to all of us trying to find love within this world.

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      1. Nuala

        Thanks for your thoughtful response to my post! I definitely see the points you are making. Actually you were echoing my sentiment when you said “Consider it this way – that person has self-eliminated.” As a side-note, they have since contacted me again to talk, but now I have this nagging doubt as to the sincerity of their “I thought about it and decided I was ok with things as they are.” Because it makes me wonder now if it is just curiosity getting the best of them, or they haven’t met a cis-person and are “settling”. I live in a “less than cosmopolitan” small city, so chances of meeting someone out this way who understands is slim. If I am open up front, then I get the people who are looking for an “exotic pet”, and not considering me as a woman who would make a great girlfriend/wife possibility. I have been extremely fortunate to have family and close friends who love and accept me, and in fact support and encourage me. Not many of us have that. Finding someone interested in a relationship with a woman who is struggling with a birth defect and working toward congruence is another matter entirely. I do have confidence in the future though and my life at the moment is the best it has ever been. And I am really enjoying the postings here… no one has had to invoke Godwin’s Law of internet forums yet. :)

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        1. scorpiopixie

          Well, I’m not trans, but I am a lesbian, and what you’re articulating is something as old as time for queer folk, regardless the kind of queer you are. How many times has a gay woman fallen for a so-called “straight” woman who falls for her as well, but takes a long time to come to terms with this new possibility and new adjustment to her identity?

          I can’t tell you how many times, especially when I was younger, that women (friends, girls at parties, etc) would hear that I was bi (or so I thought at the time) and automatically assume that I’d be interested or they could try out being with a girl with me, regardless of whether or not I was actually attracted to them. So I can relate to feeling like an exotic pet.

          My point is this – if you like this person, then give them the benefit of the doubt. This might be assy of me to say, but gender issues/transing is still new to a LOT of people, and just as people are still learning to not only accept gays and lesbians (and to accept themselves as gays and lesbians), there are a lot more people who are unaware of what it’s like to be trans (me included). So, give him/her the benefit of the doubt. They’re coming around and rethinking things, and realizing that their issues and fears are THEIRS and not entirely about you. This person also realized that YOU are pretty fucking awesome and that to cut you off because of this part of your life would be missing out on getting to know someone pretty cool. So, let them get to know you. Then, at least if one of you rejects the other, it’s because of personality differences, not physical ones.

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      2. Alyssa

        Finally, a cogent comment that explains it without being wrapped in transmisogyny.

        The first thing I want to say is that this isn’t about saying that any particular person is bad, or a bigot, or whatever. IT ISN’T ABOUT YOU.

        This is about the experiences of trans* MAAB folks. And in that experience, numbers matter. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I have to work 10x harder to find someone, go 10x longer between relationships, and spend 10x more energy maintaining a relationship. That leads to an overall experience that is oppressive.

        This is why we’re so heated about this.

        Let’s step back and talk about a different axis of privilege and oppression, so that people here may better understand: race. OKCupid has a great blog that studies statistical trends in romance. This post in particular is excellent; it studies the role of ethnicity in message and response rates. http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/

        The long and short of it is: if you are an African American, in particular, an African American woman, you are disproportionately sent messages and replied to. All else being equal, empirical statistics suggest that rates should be much higher than they are individually.

        Obviously something is going on. And it’s reasonable to conclude that that something is racism.

        Now, if you wouldn’t consider a relationship with someone who is African American, are you racist? Maybe. Maybe not. BUT IT ISN’T ABOUT YOU. IT ISN’T ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE A BAD PERSON.

        It’s about the experiences of African Americans. And that experience is one that is fraught with discrimination. So when African Americans talk about racism in dating and romance, those complaints are legitimate. As decent people, WE SHOULD LISTEN.

        But think of it this way: it’s the sum total of individual actions that lead to the experience of African Americans in dating. No snowflake believes itself responsible for the avalanche. But in a way, we are all responsible. Every one.

        So do we have a responsibility to examine our preferences and see if they are rooted in bias, prejudice, or discrimination? Yes. Yes we do.

        The same is true for transmisogyny, transphobia, and cissexism.

        And it is incredibly dismissive to say, “Well, everyone has to work to find the right person.” Not everyone has to work equally hard. And that matters. Everyone ostensibly has a chance to get a really great job and be rich. But chances are not equal, and that illustrates bias and oppression.

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        1. bra

          Mind blown, omfg this.

          This to me made all things that I struggled with make sene. But I do date trans women (duuuuuh), but still to explain it to others, co-sign thanks for the articulation you are making the world a better place.

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        2. Scorpiopixie

          I think you’re replying to me? I’m going to assume that, and go with it.

          Let me start with this – my best friend from age 9 to 27 was a Black girl who was legally blind. I am very, very aware of the ways she was discriminated against over and over and I did my best to make sure, when she was with me, she didn’t experience that. How? Well, first and foremost I NEVER told people in advance she was blind. They would then coddle her and treat her like a toddler, and it was gross. She was a smart, accomplished, strong, and awesome woman in her own right. She graduated from a top college in four years, and yup, had a LOT of difficulty finding work.

          Love for her was harder as well, because the question was always “does he really care about her, is he just indulging her, is he using her, or what?” Oh, and as much as it was more difficult for her than me as a sighted, Caucasian girl, she’s happily married and I am very single.

          So, my point is that while it may be more difficult for a trans person to find a variety of people to date than a non-trans person, we all have reasons why love hasn’t claimed us yet.

          I am NOT invalidating or closing my ears to the very valid reasons why my trans brothers and sisters have said it’s harder for them. On the contrary, I think I’ve shown through my comments and questions on Sebastian’s blogs here a willingness to listen and to be open and to learn. There’s plenty I do not know and understand about what it’s like to be trans, but there’s plenty I do understand about what it’s like to continuously be rejected and feel you’re having dirt kicked in your face. I fully and completely understand your point about African-American people on OK Cupid having less dating options, because I believe it wholeheartedly. It is most definitely not that one rejection that does it, but the frustration of the continual rejections that does it. I get that. Believe me, I have plenty of areas in my life where I’ve gotten rejected over and over and over and….yeah. It sucks and it can be really disheartening.

          I don’t think anyone is saying it’s all about me (meaning me, SP). And yeah, I know I’m doing the “I’m not a bigot!” dance so that I won’t get wiped by the same brush of frustrations that you’ve all expressed, and I know it’s bullshit, because anytime someone does that dance it’s about saying “but really, I’M a good person, I would NEVER do something that horrible”. And we get to pat ourselves on the back for being open minded and “cool” people rather than getting that if you’re not part of the group suffering the prejudice and frustrations, you really don’t get it and likely never will fully.

          A friend shared with me the Spoon Theory yesterday and it made me cry with its awesomeness – http://www.butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory-written-by-christine-miserandino/.

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          1. KSH

            I agree with you

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  47. Creatrix Tiara

    Wow, so much to see and take in, though I do have to go so I have to come back to this later.

    This is something that has been weighing on my mind a bit. I’m a queer cis woman. My first and primary partner, love of my life, etc etc, is a straight cis guy. Hell he’s so typical that *I’m* the queerest thing about him! (And he the straightest thing about me). About the only thing not-straight about him is that he’s open to open relationships and isn’t one for marriage, though he hasn’t really had any luck in that department.

    I’ve vacillated between queer/lesbian/pansexuality/bisexuality over the past few years, mainly because I found that I couldn’t find good words to really articulate what my attraction was to: Typically female bodies. Boobs, vulvas, vagina, you get the drift. It didn’t matter to me how the other person identified as gender-wise – M, F, MTF, FTM, genderqueer, third gender, tenth gender, pie, whatever – if your body for the most part could be female I was likely drawn to you. You didn’t even need to be *feminine*, particularly.

    It was phalluses and penises I couldn’t deal with. I was OK with my boyfriend’s, but as time passed it became more something I kind of tolerated rather than something that made me super excited. You know how celebs say “girls are nice but I can’t live without dick”? I was the opposite of that. I couldn’t really fathom them being particularly attractive. A lot of the time it turned me off.

    This got weird when I was raped by a woman, but with huge very phallic dildos. So now penetration became a problem. Anything that looked like a penis became a problem – strap-ons, dildos, and yes my poor boy’s genitalia.

    I say “pansexual” or “bisexual”, people see my boyfriend, and they think I only deal with girls for fun. And so far that’s been the case but that’s mostly because the *other girls* haven’t been interested in me for more than just a one-night-stand or a short fling. it’s not for lack of trying! I would like a more medium-term (or longer-than-three-days) intimate relationship with a girl, or a female-bodied person; that just hasn’t happened yet.

    Many times I’ve been quite oblivious to people’s birth-sex status, so unless someone tells me they’re trans or intersex or otherwise not conventionally M or F I probably wouldn’t know. And it’s not like I’ve never been attracted to trans women or have not even found other cis men attractive (ah fey queer boys, why won’t you make out with me). It’s just that when it comes to doing anything beyond cuddling I’m waaaaaaaaaay more comfortable with female bodies. There’s more of a spark. There’s a HELL of a lot more chemistry.

    There was a moment where I was fooling around with a girl and a lightbulb went off: “this is how it’s meant to feel like.” I knew that for most practical purposes I am a lesbian – I just happen to be in a committed relationship with a straight cis guy who loves me like nothing else, I trust more than anyone (a BIG BIG deal), and who still gives me physical affection even if his body parts freak me out a little bit through no fault of his own.

    So what am I? Vulvatarian? Who the hell knows. I felt so bad that I wasn’t as gender-egalitarian as I thought I would be, but sometimes that’s just how it is.

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    1. Creatrix Tiara

      Oh, and re whether non-queer people can relate to queer experiences: certainly my boyfriend will never be able to really REALLY experience what it’s like to be a queer female migrant minority. It’s everything he’s *not*. And it did take him a while to really wrap his head around a lot of issues surrounding gender, race, culture, sexuality – things that he probably wouldn’t have had much exposure to if I wasn’t in his life aside from very superficial notices. But he *worked at it*. For me, and for us. He actively went to look up information about queer culture, queer experiences, privilege – probably because I kept ranting about it, but also because he understood how important it was to me.

      And honestly? He’s been a hell of a lot better at trying to understand where I’m coming from, and accepting me as I am, than many so-called radical queer open-minded people who would consider people like him “The Man” or “the enemy”.

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    2. ginasf

      @Creatrix:

      “It’s just that when it comes to doing anything beyond cuddling I’m waaaaaaaaaay more comfortable with female bodies. There’s more of a spark. There’s a HELL of a lot more chemistry.”

      See, this is where this thread has sadly become a fail. Some very sweeping, not terribly thoughtful judgments about what people’s bodies are like are fouling it up. There are trans women who have very “female” bodies and very much make love like the women they are. And you packaging your lack of sexual interest in them with cis men is why it’s hard for me to think Autostraddle is especially evolved when it comes to trans issues, especially issues surrounding trans women. I know you didn’t INTEND this to sound as insulting as it does, but I’m entirely burnt out on defending intentions when the offensiveness of the words is so real. Again, we’re all entitled to our tastes and turn-ons, but you’re NOT entitled to pull cis-bodied bullshit in the process and think trans women are going to be cool with it. :(

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      1. P

        Okay well I’m not denying that people have made generalizations and said rude things in the thread comments, but what the bloody hell is wrong with her saying she is attracted to female genitalia?! She never said anything about whether those genitalia belonged to a trans* woman or man or whatever….she was just stating her sexual preferences, and you had to jump on that and say she was excluding trans people. I mean did you even read the rest of her post? There was nothing in there that I would deem offensive. Why is everyone obsessively picking apart word choice instead of listening to what this person is trying to say?

        Jesus.

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      2. Janis Bing

        I think you missed that part: “It didn’t matter to me how the other person identified as gender-wise – M, F, MTF, FTM, genderqueer, third gender, tenth gender, pie, whatever “

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        1. ginasf

          “And it’s not like I’ve never been attracted to trans women or have not even found other cis men attractive (ah fey queer boys, why won’t you make out with me). It’s just that when it comes to doing anything beyond cuddling I’m waaaaaaaaaay more comfortable WITH FEMALE BODIES. There’s more of a spark. There’s a HELL of a lot more chemistry.”

          Read the quote carefully. Yes, she IS contradicting the earlier part of the post where she claims she doesn’t know whether someone is trans/doesn’t really care. And this is why I think her statement reeks of fail. She clearly does care and has already characterized trans women as having non-female bodies. Sorry, but that’s pure ‘wanna be an ally but I’m secretly making some effed up assumptions’ doublespeak which sadly thrives in the queer community.

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          1. Janis Bing

            Look I think this entire dialogue is loaded with problematic terms, ‘female-bodied’ being the very first of them. If you identify as a woman your body is that of a female’s, no matter you genitalia.

            Obviously pre-op and non-op trans women (MTF / MAAB) are female-bodied.

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      3. trans guy

        yeah, there were some things in your comment that made me a bit uncomfortable, such as this:

        “Many times I’ve been quite oblivious to people’s birth-sex status, so unless someone tells me they’re trans or intersex or otherwise not conventionally M or F I probably wouldn’t know. ”

        I wouldn’t consider myself not conventionally male. society said that my sex was female at birth but this has never been my identity. I identify strongly as male in a very conventional sense. there are a lot of people who transitioned who feel this way and would be uncomfortable with being thought of as not conventionally male or female. lots of trans folk identify as gender variant sure, but plenty of us don’t.

        Also, I wouldn’t use the term “female bodied” to refer to trans men unless you know they are prefer that term (it needs to be on an individual basis). If you identify as male then your body is that of a man’s no matter where you are in terms of medical transition (at least that’s how most guys I know feel)

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      4. Emma

        is the problem that creatrix is saying “female bodied” rather than say, “people with vaginas” or “people with internal sex organs” or something like that? i didn’t read her comment as excluding post-op trans women, but perhaps the using the term “female-bodied” the way she does excludes people who are female (and thus do have “female” bodies by default) and do not have vaginas.

        however i think that having a preference for certain genitalia or bodies does not make her transphobic.

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        1. GInasf

          @Juniper:
          “however i think that having a preference for certain genitalia or bodies does not make her transphobic.”

          If you’ve read anything I’ve written, you know I totally agree with your statement. The problem is, as her statement is written, she is excluding trans women from female-bodied, and from the possibility that they would even feel female (and she’s indirectly grouping them with cis men). That’s not a statement of preference, that’s just a statement of transphobia. I’m certainly willing to allow she might have meant “trans men” instead of “trans women” (which would hugely change the meaning of what she wrote) but as it’s written is I find it pretty insulting and small minded. And I agree with Janice Bing that using the term “female-bodied” without examining what it means is asking for a lot of hurt feelings and alienated readers.

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          1. juniper

            got it! i definitely see what you are saying now.

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          2. Creatrix Tiara

            OK so I’m back, and I do realise that my language is total fail in many parts, mostly because I’m struggling to really pin down what it is I’m drawn to or found myself drawn to most of the time.

            The closest thing I actually have to a definitive answer:
            Penises = out.
            However you got them. By birth or by surgery. Silicone, plastic, flesh, whatever. I don’t even like penis-shaped sex toys. There.

            Does this exclude trans women as a category? Perhaps it does. But it also excludes cis men, and trans men who have gone through operation.

            AND YET. This can’t be a definitive statement, because as I said – the love of my life? CIS GUY. Like, with a “normal” penis and blah de blah.
            So it’s not a complete dealbreaker.
            But it’s enough for me to spend quite a bit of time in situations where I would see naked dicks a fair bit (I do volunteering/performance/etc in queer/fetish/sex-pos circles) and get rather put off by it.

            I’m so new with the sexuality thing that I haven’t actually been in a situation where I was in a potential relationship/hookup/etc with anyone that wasn’t cis-gendered, just by matter of circumstance (usually it’s people that pick me out :P ). I’ve been attracted to a hell of a lot of people across genders and bodies and etc, but I also find that my physical and intimate comfort levels vary across people. Genitalia is a big part of it (really, just the penis thing) but just because you may not have a penis doesn’t necessarily mean DING! SLEEP WITH ME FOREVERS.

            Suffice to say: I have NO CLUE what is going on and I’m sure that there’s some problematic stuff somewhere, maybe I’m secretly misandrist or something. I dunno. @_@

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            1. Alyssa

              You see, this is precisely the type of viewpoint and experience we need to talk about as a community. I’m glad you’re here.

              You’re not secretly misandrist for not liking penises.

              The transphobia, cissexism, and transmisogyny that came across in your statements earlier are rooted in the implication that trans women all have this kind of body that you categorize as “male” or “masculine”, penis or not. And also that trans men have this kind of body that you categorize as “female” or “feminine”.

              I don’t want to erase interest folks, non-binaries, nor do I want to erase trans* folks not medically/chemically transitioning for any reason. I just want to get cis people to think about the variety of bodies and physical traits that can exist in the trans* population, and in particular start thinking about the distinctions between primary sex characteristics, secondary sex characteristics determined at primary puberty, secondary sex characteristics determined by later HRT-driven puberty, and secondary sex characteristics determined by current hormonal levels. The following questions are to spur thought, not to say that all trans* folk are like this.

              If a trans woman has been on HRT for a while, has body odor that is estrogen derived (pheromones), has soft skin, estrogenized soft tissue facial features, reduced upper body musculature, higher body fat content, estrogenized body fat distribution (hips, thighs, etc.), and breast tissue, then in what way is that body “male” or “masculine”?

              If a trans man has been on HRT for a while, has body odor that is testosterone derived (pheromones), has rougher skin, testosteronized soft tissue facial features, increased musculature overall (especially in the upper body), lower body fat content, testosteronized body fat distribution (abdomen), and reduced breast tissue (due to loss of body fat), then in what way is that body “female” or “feminine”?

              It’s really hard to talk about this stuff without getting biological gender essentialist, but I do want people, especially cis people, to open up a little to consider that their notions of “male bodied” and “female bodied” are constructed around very rigid assumptions about what those bodies look like.

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  48. FG

    I just want to know what ‘cis’ actually means. I can understand what it refers to, but I don’t know it’s actual meaning or origin. I like this article and the thought provoking comments that have been made.
    To me, as a woman that identifies as a lesbian it is hard to understand everything that has been said because basically I love women and I love vaginas. I do not know any trans people because I live in a small town and there are none that I know of. A lot of the comments here are very negative and may be perceived as aggressive.
    My point is, basically I don’t understand the language although I think I understand the sentiments. To me, it is what it is, you like who you like.

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    1. Vinny

      ‘Cis’ is pretty much the antonym of ‘trans’. Not just in relation to transgender issues; in many cases, where a word can be prefixed with ‘trans’, the opposite can be conveyed by prefixing with ‘cis’. For example, the first place I came across it was in Chemistry, dealing with ‘cis’ or ‘trans’ isomers of molecules. A ‘cis’ isomer had similar groups on the same side of the molecule (such as two hydroxyl groups ‘above’ the spine of the molecule) while a ‘trans’ isomer had the similar groups on opposing sides (such as one hydroxyl group on either side of the spine of the molecule).

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  49. Suburban Soulgirl

    I’ve gotta say- all the dialogue going on here is making my head hurt. Which is why I generally read trans* related articles and not comment.

    @Sebastian: I hear what you’re saying and your concerns sound completely legitimate. I think everyone wants to be loved for who we really are…There is nothing wrong with that. I hope you find that special woman and that she cherishes you with all of her heart.

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  50. meta

    I’m really disappointed by this and so many of the comments. The transphobia rate is reaching the high double digits. So disheartening.

    Regarding lesbians justifying dating trans men and vice versa, it seems to come down to people saying that the attraction lies in some aspect of trans men being female. Being female originally, growing up female, having some mystical essential female nature through socialization. And that’s just sad. It’s transphobia, even if trans men are willing to go along with it and benefit from it.

    I get that it is hard to leave the queer culture that you might have grown up with if you transitioned after coming out. But that’s not an excuse to use transphobia to get laid or have relationships. I get that straight cis women might be more difficult to date due to transphobia. But that doesn’t mean you should internalize it and date lesbians. I get that you don’t want your personal life to be sacrificed in the name of some nebulous phobia, but you have to realize that you are part of creating a queer women’s culture that includes trans men but would be derisive of including cis men (because of fetization, oh wait…) and including trans women (because of transphobia, oh wait…) You really don’t see that both of those — a degree of fetization and transphobia — is what is going on here?

    Regarding lesbians not dating trans women, that’s just blatant transphobia. I think the majority of you probably have never knowingly met a trans woman that you’d want to date or sleep with. You probably have but haven’t know it. It’s just plain ignorance with a side of gender essentialism and it’s ugly.

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  51. juniper

    it’s not what sebastian is addressing, but it does seem like there are a fair number of (previously or currently) specifically lesbian-identified women dating trans men. i am interested in any thoughts or experience with this anyone has, because while i understand the many logical and political arguments against it (many well outlined in multiple above comments) it does seem like something that just IS happenning, and i’m not sure there’s any true “shoulds” in terms of dating/love. how/why this works for some people seems more complex than lack of choices, internalized transphobia, etc.

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    1. juniper

      upon re-reading, the article actually does address this. but i guess i’m interested in the perspective of the lesbian partner, especially when she was previously ONLY lesbian indentified not bi/queer/etc.

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      1. whatkentsaid

        I would have things to say about this/have said things about this on the tumblr

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  52. andryfemme

    This post is amazing, especially re: issues of desire between trans men and lesbian identified women.

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  53. jifener25

    I identify as genderqueer and am lucky enough to have found a girl that will let me be every part of me, instead of expecting me to hide away my maleness and embrace my “femininity” (which i truly dislike, when i wear dresses i feel like i’m in drag. pretty drag, and drag that gets me lots of tips when i deliver pizzas, but drag nonetheless)

    because of her i’ve been able to go out as Jude (what i call my male self, my mom actually came up with it) and pass. it was a great day. and i look forward to more.

    i think it’s more about finding an open minded girl, than what they’re attracted to. you know?

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  54. Anna 7

    Thanks, Sebastian!

    Lol, I definitely have a thing for trans guys. Like a SERIOUS thing. But I definitely respect their maleness, which has been confusing me a lot lately. Your article really helped me think through it :)

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    1. confused

      how can you respect trans mens’ maleness if you have a “thing” for men of trans experience? the way you worded it sounds like a fetish. why are you putting trans men in a separate category from cis men?

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      1. whatkentsaid

        I think what she was probably saying is that she has been attracted to multiple men whom she knows to be trans* and was confused about that because she respects their maleness but is usually attracted to women.

        And this might be a controversial statement, but I would argue that many trans*men do identify as being in a separate category from cis men, especially those who ID as transmen rather than trans men.

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  55. tv

    I am a gay girl who fantasizes about having sex with men ALL THE TIME. my reason for not dating men is that i have yet to find one that i’m emotionally attracted to, for all the reasons you listed, Sebastian. Which is exactly why I find trans men so sexy–they have the whole sexy man thing going on, while being a lot more aware of all the things that are fucked up about our social gender system than 95% of cis-gender men.

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  56. Annie

    Wow, thank you for this article/comments section. I feel like I have gained so much by reading it. To all those who shared your thoughts/stories/questions, thank you.

    Sebastian, I really appreciate your willingness to listen and discuss your article openly. Your respect for everyone’s comments and thoughtful responses are rare to find online.

    This article/conversation is just another example of why Autostraddle is so awesome!

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  57. Mario Z

    Obviously this was a fab, right on post… hence all the comments! I am 46, FTM for about one year now…. though I started shaving my face when I was 13 and the rest of me when I was in my 20′s. I struggled with this one when I came out 10 years ago. I tried to like women…really tried. Couldn’t do it and thought I was a failure as a transman… LOL. Until I figured out I was a gay man!!!

    Now that I am transitioned for sometime, I find out I am actually attracted to cisgaymen and transwomen. I cannot stand ciswomen especially the ones my age!

    I am married… not looking… to a beautiful gay man, but should I find myself single again… where I sit now… I believe I would remain open to just about any of the genders (believe me the way I classify genders now, there are lots of them… for me gay men are their own gender…) It really is the magic of the person, not the gender and that magic could happen in the least expected of places.

    Thanks for a terrific post and comments!!

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  58. KP

    @ Mario Z. Wow, you can’t stand cisgendered women of your age? Wait to go, you! (SARCASM). The story of your working out your sexual orientation is of course a valid and interesting perspective on the topic, but is the thoughtless misogyny really necessary? I’m a transguy who happens to be attracted to all kinds of women (not, like, all at the same time, that be crazy) but I’m not about to say that I can’t stand, categorically, men, cis or trans. Because men are people too. True story. And women d’un certain âge probably get enough shit about how they’re not thin/beautiful/young/funny enough to be found attractive without being hated on by another gay guy. Soo…Don’t do it. Thanks.

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  59. Anon

    I’m not sure if this is the right place to be asking marginally-related questions, but I loved this article and all the intelligent comments and I really value your opinions.

    I recently came out to myself and others as some variety of genderqueer (not sure yet what I’m calling it), after having known it in the back of my mind since I was like eight. Defining myself in this way makes me feel so much more comfortable and at ease, but at the same time I can’t shake the feeling that I’m just being sexist, and trying to trade one set of stereotypes for another. Does this bother anybody else?

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    1. bookbound

      I’m also coming to realize that I’m genderqueer (or masculine of center or something) and it seems to fit me better, too! But I know what you mean. Stereotypes about femininity and masculinity restrict men as well as women (and folks who may be in between).

      I think another thing keeping me from wanting to fully transition and live as a man is the sexism and unthinking privilege I’ve seen many cis-men–including friends–display. I really don’t want to be a part of that, you know? I’m still a feminist, dammit…

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  60. Carolyn

    I was very interested to read this article since I am in fact a lesbian dating a transguy. As communicative as our relationship is (and I think must be to continue through his transition), there are probably still things he tell me. He says he has no problem with me continuing to identify as a lesbian, although I am now embracing queer as more in line with my identity), I know deep down he has a fear that I am going to leave him for a woman. Maybe not any time soon, because of time limitations on medical intervention, but when his face and body become more masculine.
    The truth is, first time I saw him, I knew he was a man. This was well over a year before he began transitioning, and across the room at a PRIDE meeting. I was surprised when I actually met him and found out he was living as a woman. I was ever more surprised when he liked me!
    All of this has called me to examine myself and my identity even more. I don’t know what it is that attracts me to transguys, but this is not the first time. I see that lesbian doesn’t really describe me. Mostly it was a label I adopted for simplicity and to avoid discrimination (oh the dreaded bisexuality/lesbian debate). In actuality, I have never completely took the idea of being with a man off the table, trans or cis. I just didn’t expect it to happen, but I’m very glad it has. This experience is opening my mind to new thoughts and ideas and ways of understanding, and I couldn’t be happier.

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  61. Sasha

    I really enjoyed this article. It shed light on a perspective that I think all queer women can appreciate listening to and attempt to understand.
    I also wanted to share that as a self-identified queer/lesbian, I AM attracted to trans-men. My current partner is not trans- she identifies as butch- but she does experience certain aspects of her sexuality as a “man”. Furthermore, my partner before her has now transitioned (which had nothing to do with us ending the relationship). I just wanted to share this to show that there are lesbian-identified women who are attracted and embrace trans-men.

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  62. sallysue

    Thank you for the enlightened perspective with this article, and I love the discussions that ensue in the comments. As a femme lesbian, I understand your initial reluctance to date a lesbian. Mainly because, while I am attracted to the ‘male’ spirit, if I’m going to be having sex with somebody, I’d want them to have a female body, same as me. While I do find trans men very attractive, it’s the softer, biologically-feminine side of them that I’m sexually drawn to. I’ll search for the subtle female aspects that remain. Therefore, I could never date a (non-queer) trans man, especially after being educated about yall’s lives. It would simply be disrespectful to their true identity and backwards toward their whole process of transitioning, which is something I fully support on an intellectual and emotional level.

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  63. Annabelle

    I agree with you Sallysue… after literally reading comments for over an hour I scrolled down to the bottom to say pretty much exactly what you said and found you’d already said it!
    I’m a femme lesbian attracted to feminine women and like you, I think that if I was to be attracted to a trans man it would mean I was (erroneously) still seeing the female aspects, and if I were to see a trans man in their true male identity I would almost certainly not be attracted sexually/romantically to them as i have never been attracted to any cis-gender man. For this reason I only see trans men as potential friends – same as cis men.
    What was confronting to me in this article & comments was questioning my attitude to dating trans women. (I’m in a long term monogamous relationship with a femme cis woman lesbian so its not really pertinent to my dating life – but interesting all the same)
    I am turned on by breasts and defined waists and enjoy interacting with Vaginas.
    I’ve never (knowingly) met a trans woman so I can’t say, but i like to think that if I was in a position where I was single and met a woman and was attracted to her and then she came out to me as trans that it wouldn’t matter… but not having been in that position I don’t know.

    I think a lot of people make silly statements to do with dating ‘rules’ but we’ll break them if we meet someone we have chemistry with.
    For example, in the past I’ve made sweeping statements about not seeing myself dating a woman who dressed a certain way, or had certain interests because to me that represented a socio-economic group that I found hard to relate to and I couldn’t foresee a way that she would be compatible with my own values and attitudes. My gf of over two years falls on the wrong side of more than one of my previous judgemental assumptions about who I could date – but I think shes perfect (and perfect for me)
    While this example is a little more flippant than the serious gender identity discussion on this thread, my opinion is this;
    We are all only human. No matter how openminded, how empathic, how non judgemental we try to be we will all occasionally slip up in some way, whether that be assumptions based on our social, political, racial, economic or any other background factor. It might be not being open to dating someone trans, or it might be not being open to dating someone we see has having too much white/social/male privilege. The fact that someone like Sebastian who (from his writing) I perceive as being very empathetic, open minded and politically correct is getting pulled up in comments for his problematic attitudes is testament to the fact that no-one is perfect.
    The only thing I see as problematic is when someone comes along who challenges your past assumptions and you remain closed to them. We are all ever-evolving in our understanding of life and our place in the world… No matter what your current assumptions – be open to change, open to growing your understanding, and open to loving people you might not have once expected to!

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  64. Kate B

    My girlfriend asked me “what if I was a boy” and I told her “If you were a boy, we would have to talk about our relationship, because I’m a lesbian.”
    Honestly, I don’t know what I would do in that situation. That girl came out as genderqueer months later, but we had broken up by then.
    I don’t know if I handled that wrong, but I don’t think I ever got the chance to address it. If that was her trying to come out, I missed it. If she had come out, I would have taken a little more time with my answer.

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  65. ThatGayAlaskan

    I experienced a situation like this earlier this year. A trans boy (he was seventeen) could not for the life of him figure out why I wouldn’t date him. I am a lesbian, and that is something I cling to. I like girls, their bodies, their femininity, and all of that jazz. I’ve worked hard to solidify that in the minds of my not-so-accepting-in-the-beginning friends and family. So to date someone who identifies as male would just throw the whole thing out the window. Even though this guy was pre-op and pre-t, I just wouldn’t feel comfortable dating him, because I wouldn’t be respecting him as a male. I would be liking him for all of his female qualities.
    That’s another reason I don’t think I could date a trans woman. I’m not throwing the notion out entirely, but as I mentioned before, I love women. Their bodies and their anatomy included. Having never dated a trans woman, I could be overcomplicating the whole thing.

    (This whole comment sounds like I only date “femmes.” I don’t, necessarily. I like to say I like the girls who can rock both masculinity and femininity, but I will say I am usually attracted to more feminine girls.)

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